Enterprise Marketer - Make Your Marketing Matter.

Walking through the halls of the Cleveland Convention Center at this year’s Content Marketing World, you hear all the buzz.  Who is excited about what?  What sessions were amazing?  Which speakers weren’t prepared?  And the one on most veteran attendee’s minds, will UBM be able to do what Joe and Pam Pulizzi did?

On this episode of the Explicit Content Podcast, veteran podcaster Pamela Muldoon makes her return to the host role, along with Jeff Julian, to discuss this year’s takeaways from Content Marketing World 2018.

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Jeff Julian: Welcome to the content marketing edition of the Explicit Content Podcast, and I am Jeff Julian, a permanent host on this show. I keep trying to find other people to fit in to my hosting roles in some of the other shows because I love these conversations that we're having, but I'm usually like, I probably shouldn't be the one having this conversation with Andy or with Melanie, but content marketing and that is my space. And my co-host, it's so weird having Pamela Muldoon as a host again. She'll be on the show with me talking about content marketing. So Pamela, how are you doing?

Pamela Muldoon: Hey Jeff, what's up?

Jeff Julian: Oh, it's so good to hear your voice as a host of a show again.

Pamela Muldoon: I know, I know. It's good to be back. It really is. I get asked quite often what podcast are you currently doing? And for the last probably two years I've had to say, "Oh, I'm on hiatus." So it's good to be back. Happy to be here and happy to be co-host, it's exciting.

Jeff Julian: And we've been chatting about podcasts for that entire time and I've waited for the moment I could get and I think with Explicit Content format. It allows for one, our lives are far more complicated than they were before to fit in to the show role where it's not every single week, but at the same time the conversations are relevant new and consistent with where we want to go with our voices.

Pamela Muldoon: Yeah, I think, and maybe that's a future show Jeff is the honest conversation about podcasting, right? If you're going to do this right and you're going to do it well, the commitment and the work it really takes to not only do the show and make it happen, prepare and just have good solid content to provide your audience. But the promotion and distribution as well. So it is not an easy of all the different content tactics and formats out there, but one that's very worthwhile if you can make it work for your business or for yourself.

Jeff Julian: Yeah. I have a friend who's been running the show since 2003.

Pamela Muldoon: Yikes.

Jeff Julian: Same show every single week.

Pamela Muldoon: Awesome.

Jeff Julian: And he is a musician, he has his own studio this thing has grown immensely. He has two podcasts or several actually, but the two main ones, one is on the topic of software development. The other is on the topic of ketogenetic diets and both are super well known in their own space. So imagine having influence in two independent spaces that don't overlap, that would just be made with podcast too.

We want to thank rev.com for being a sponsor of the show and helping us bring transcripts and captions to the Enterprise Marketer and Explicit Content Podcast shows. For more information about Rev and to get $10 off your first order, visit emktr.co/rev.

Pamela Muldoon: Because it is, it's one of the more fun content formats I think to present from a creator and I think as an audience member it's just, It's so intimate and when done well, it's engaging on a level that sometimes it's hard to explain because you're literally in their head, right? So.

Jeff Julian: Yeah, I love sitting in traffic, listen to a podcast for getting about the world around me or what exit I needed to take or how long it's gonna take me to get there because I'm so into the show or the conversation.

Pamela Muldoon: So do people honking behind you because you're listening to the podcast and you didn't see the light change to green?

Jeff Julian: Yeah. You never check your phone when you listen to a podcast, you put it down and you let it go. And like I was sitting down with the Lip Sync guys at Content Marketing World and he said, "You know what? Apple is really investing in this next version of the podcast app, with your air pods you could tap on the left ear and it'll skip forward 30 seconds so that way you can skip through the intro and the advertisement." I was like, that is so cool that people are sitting down thinking about ways people are consuming this medium and trying to invest in to getting them to the content quicker.

Pamela Muldoon: Right. Well that'll be an interesting ... It would be interesting to talk about that because at length itself too, one, why is your intro 30 seconds? I have issues with that and two if they're going to skip through advertising then we need to continually figure out how, what monetization means when it comes to content. So interesting.

Jeff Julian: Yeah. And I think if it's repetitive that it's ... You need to mix in ads and you need to do more voiceover ads that are part of the show and then find ways to engage your sponsors into maybe surveys that are part of giveaways, part of the show notes, part of the social media push, right? Make it to where it's, there a bigger part of the show and not just a breakaway ad that is prescribed.

Pamela Muldoon: Yes, I think more partner marketing is definitely in the cards for podcasting moving forward. So yeah, and of course Rob Walton, those guys over at Lip Sync and they're known, they're connected to Apple. So, yeah. But what a great segue into the main topic, now you met these guys, you talked to them at Content Marketing World 2018, which we just wrapped up hard to believe a week ago as we're having this conversation. Yeah, and beautiful Cleveland, Ohio.

Jeff Julian: Yeah. And it was a new year. It was the first year that Joe and Pam weren't involved during the planning and the execution. And it was all UBM and things changed for sure. Thanks for definitely the same, but it was a new team-

Pamela Muldoon: Yeah and yet in some ways because there are so many content marketing institute, original team members or long from team members that still continued to work with the organization. It was an interesting blend of new with UBM taking total ownership of the show. But then also having your friends there that you've known for, in my case, eight years that bring it back to, it's a very powerful reason why we go every year. It's obviously great content, great presentations. It's our space, but the people definitely bring me back every year. So it was a, I think a pretty good blend of trying to balance all of that this year.

Jeff Julian: It feels like the UBM people are really trying to engage in those relationships too. And so, Stephanie Stall, who's kind of taken over the role of Pam and Joe, she's really engaging with the audience. She wants to get to know you, she will follow you on Instagram and comment on things, right? She's part of this community now and then you've got the OGs like J.K and Kathy and Mo, right that it would not fail. Right, if their faces [inaudible 00: 07: 09].

Pamela Muldoon: For sure. For sure. Yeah. And I think today we're going to talk a little bit about what we experienced there and we both had different experiences just simply because of how our time is spent. But then also, just like anything, this conference has grown exponentially in the last eight years. So some things continued to improve with growth and some things we have to let go because of growth. Right?

Jeff Julian: Absolutely. And I've only been going for four years now and so the growth has been, I don't know, hasn't been a sloped as high as 600 to over 4,000. It was more like around 3000 now around 4,000. So it's been pretty consistent. But the interesting thing was the change in people, you don't see the same people every year as attendees. There's a pretty significant attrition rate of new people coming in, old people going out, but still maintaining the similar size audience.

Pamela Muldoon: Yeah, I think that was one of the first telling points of the conference for me. And I, like I mentioned, I've been going all eight years. I started in 2011 when we were just over 600 people. We had Kevin Smith as our closing keynote and he was actually my tipping point for going back in 2011 because I'm a podcaster and he had just launched SModcast, and his entire network of podcasts. And so when they announced he was a keynote, I remember it well I was on the fence because I was an independent freelancer at the time, so we all know what that means.

And as soon as I saw he was headlining this show, I'm like I'm done. So at that just, and I am so grateful I made that decision because yes, we were just over 600 in 2011 growing to over 4,000 here now in 2018. But you make an absolute interesting point is when I think every first keynote, and I don't know if it was, I think it was Robert or Stephanie asked, "How many of you are new this year?" And you look around the room of people raising their hands in that first day and it must've been over what's 50, 60% of the room. I mean, it was huge, I mean, I looked around, I was like, wow, are you kidding me? And considering the numbers haven't exponentially grown in the last two to three years. Right, it's been more of a steady growth, incrementally that is interesting that you're getting so much new blood every year and to your point and attrition factor.

So it brings up some questions, right? Like are people that have come before finding that there are other conferences that they ... Because your company will only sometimes pay for one or two conferences a year, right? If you're with an enterprise organization, so you respect that and sometimes you want to change it up, go to the marketing profs, B to B forum or maybe HubSpot was at the same time this year. Right? I think that we saw some challenges there, right? Some people had to make decisions, but man, not only were they new, I think we're seeing a changing of the guard in terms of generational as well so.

Jeff Julian: Absolutely. For me, if you think of social media marketing, it's in the marketing team, it's the entry point, right? We're hiring new people out of J school or out of marketing schools to come in and be social media marketers. And I feel like content marketing it was kind of higher level digital marketing, and now it's kind of lowered down into the, this is where we put the new people. And so people are getting one, they're moving around and they're going to different companies and they're getting into different roles, but also they're moving up the ladder, and to roles where they don't feel content marketing specific would fill their need and some were like a vendor conference like HubSpots' event or another vendor is where they would want to spend their time versus, the frontline like straight in interacting with the audience.

Pamela Muldoon: Yeah. Well, I think we've been saying this for about six or seven years. It's an interesting time in marketing and I can remember very well right before the recession hit, I got laid off from a marketing job at a large financial services firm. And so I hit the ground running as an independent contractor, when the recession was going on. So I remember you couldn't pay somebody to hire you as a marketer, right? You could not get a marketing job to save your soul. And now we are the rock stars of companies, right? Because we have such an in depth knowledge of certain areas, but also a generalist attitude. And I think to your point, what's happening is, even though this is content marketing world, right? And you've gotten Stelzner's social media marketing world, right? That everything is such an amalgamation and a blend that it's really hard to say just content or.

-information and a blend that it's really hard to say just content or just social, which is fantastic. I think that's an improvement and how we're moving forward as an industry is really appreciating these different sections of the industry but also seeing that this is all a connected situation, and one is not better than the other. One relies on the other, if that makes sense.

Jeff Julian: Yeah, it would be so interesting to have an NAB or CES of marketing, where it's all marketing conference and it's huge, like 20,000 people come to this event. Like Salesforce conference, that's huge.

Pamela Muldoon: Yeah.

Jeff Julian: And it's all over the place. It's sales and marketing and Adobe Summits, very similar, but those are vendor conferences. What's a unique, non-vendor, very specific marketing conference that is just everything? And I'm kind of glad our space doesn't have that because it would be a bear to attend any session. That was my big-

Pamela Muldoon: It already is hard.

Jeff Julian: Yeah, my big thing was I notice 13 tracks at one time-

Pamela Muldoon: Yes.

Jeff Julian: -as a speaker. That was daunting. Normally, I'm recording shows, and I could care less what's going on right now. I just want to make sure the person who's supposed to be in front of the camera is in the booth on the time that they need to be there, and I have enough space to record it.

But with this one, looking at the sessions, trying to align four different speakers up for an event and having 13 sessions at one time, I was like, that may be too much.

Pamela Muldoon: Yeah, it's really challenging for attendees, I think, to make choices. At least, on the positive side, if you did attend, you automatically get access to the video backup of all of the presentations within a couple weeks of the conference.

Jeff Julian: Yeah.

Pamela Muldoon: Now, of course, if you go back and actually watch them, that's something that we can confirm.

Jeff Julian: Exactly, that's a hard thing, yeah.

Pamela Muldoon: That's very challenging. But I think too, when we talked about changing of the guard, right, one of the things that really struck me this year, Jeff, was ... and it probably hit me more at the dance party, what do you call it? The band on Wednesday night when they were playing music, a lot from the '90s and early 2000s.

Jeff Julian: House of Blues, yeah.

Pamela Muldoon: Yes, and I realized, one, okay, I'm aging. That's all right. I'm cool with that. But at the same time, we were still seeing tracks that marketed themselves to millennials and yet millennials are now, what, early-to-mid-30s on the high end? So, my big question is why are we still marketing to this particular generation group when, at the end of the day, they're just simply a group of people that happen to be now moving into leadership roles? We should be flipping the switch a little bit on that conversation. It's not as special and unique as it was 10 years ago. These people are married now with kids.

Jeff Julian: Yeah. And their life problems are similar to my life problems.

Pamela Muldoon: Exactly.

Jeff Julian: And their work problems.

Pamela Muldoon: And we can relate more, yeah.

Jeff Julian: Yeah. We have [inaudible 00: 15: 04] millennials. We have company owners that are millennials.

Pamela Muldoon: Right.

Jeff Julian: I totally hear you there. There is still this division of the youth culture and trying to reach an audience of younger folks, but the tactics, they're not that different than the majority of adults anymore. The people who have mobile devices aren't just millennials.

Pamela Muldoon: Right, right. No, I think being aware that they're digitally native, okay, that's fantastic, but you're absolutely right. We are all using our phones and our tablets and our laptops in different ways, and we need to, as marketers, embrace how those different tactics can reach our audience.

And age is not necessarily a huge defining factor anymore. We've been building personas for years now, so we know that that's a piece. The demographics will always be a part of it. But I think our industry should be ready to just remove some of these generational labels and to start moving forward with helping people who happen to be in these roles, whether it's leadership at the age of 27 or leadership at the age of 52, right?

Jeff Julian: Yeah.

Pamela Muldoon: How to actually move their marketing organization forward.

Jeff Julian: And a lot of the people there are B2B, and gender and age is not ... those are two demographics that you don't necessarily need to sit on. I've sat through sessions from like a local company here, Hallmark, where they talk about their persona is female, and we're going to only target females, and here's how we target. I sit in the audience, going, "I have a wife who has a birthday. I have an anniversary I have to remember. I like to buy cards, so why did you pick female?"

Pamela Muldoon: They deselected you, Jeff.

Jeff Julian: Exactly. It's like I felt completely excluded, but I couldn't figure out why. And same with the age thing. I got kids, I got a device in my hand now. I don't listen to cassette tapes in my car anymore or CDs.

Pamela Muldoon: Or 8-tracks, thank you very much.

Jeff Julian: Exactly.

Pamela Muldoon: And, audience, if you need to look that up, go ahead. Google it, that's fine. Take a moment. Oh, you might be in your car.

Jeff Julian: Yeah, so I think that's a huge takeaway. I think maybe more on the tactic front. I would love to see more industry-specific things, like electricians and line workers or truck drivers with content marketing, things that would be case studies about how they reached a group of people based off of where they work, the roles they work in. How did we reach executives with this content marketing effort? Those are amazing sessions that aren't repeating the same things, and they're showing us tactics and approaches to finding the audience because, in content marketing, that's the hard part, right? We're creating the content. Hitting record on the podcast is not hard. The hard part is getting somebody to listen to it.

Pamela Muldoon: Right. No, I agree. I agree. But overall, I think you look at the agenda or the list of all the presentations, I don't envy those that have to make the decision, to be perfectly honest. That's not an easy feat. There's always your classic players that come in, right? Andrew Davis knocked it out of the park with his keynote. I could watch Andrew Davis read the ... what used to be the phone book, probably now ...

That was fantastic. And, of course, you got your ... Pam Didner's been there all eight years. You've got Lee Odden, you've got Anne Handley, of course, which is fantastic that these industry players that have been there since the birth of this, I guess, sub-segment of the marketing industry, for lack of a better ... I mean, content marketing has been around for decades and decades, but in terms of looking at it as a specific part of the industry, it's probably been more like somewhere in that 12-to-15-year range with eight years of an actual conference.

That's fantastic. But then you also get to see a lot of new players, and that is really exciting too. I think that's what's exciting about the growth from looking at where we were eight years ago to today. This is now the norm, right? How exciting is that. I remember when saying the words "content marketing," people looked at you funny.

Jeff Julian: Yeah.

Pamela Muldoon: And they said, "Oh, you mean you blog?"

Jeff Julian: Yeah. "You do the website?"

Pamela Muldoon: Right. "Is that that social media stuff?" Right? Looking at today from the list of presenters and the list of speakers, we're a more than viable part of this industry, and it's now normal to hear the words "content marketing" when people are talking about building their marketing operations inside their organization, and that's fantastic.

Jeff Julian: Yeah, absolutely. And speaking of Ann Handley, that gets to another one of my favorite takeaways. The fact that she asked Tina Fey the first question, I thought was amazing because we put-

Pamela Muldoon: But Tina Fey on content marketing, right?

Jeff Julian: We put Ann Handley at the top of the chart, right?

Pamela Muldoon: Yeah.

Jeff Julian: Ann Handley has all the wisdom of Moses, and if she needs any more, she talks directly to the god. If we need anything, we ask Ann Handley humbly, and then she hopefully doesn't make us feel too bad when she tries to get our little minds to understand how it goes in writing. But to have her eagerly ask the first question to Tina Fey was super cool, to see that we are all learning, even the ones who've been here forever and have taught on the biggest stages the entire time.

Pamela Muldoon: She asked Tina Fey if she has plans or sets goals for herself as she's creating different shows and kind of working through her career, and it was fascinating. It's interesting always to have a creative from kind of the entertainment part of the industry as a keynote because I think they add a lot of different perspective to what we do in content marketing, but also it reminds you that every genre of business does have its ... it takes all kinds to be successful.

And she said no, she doesn't plan. She kind of lets things come as inspiration is there, which is interesting because we, as business people, have to have ... When we put our budgets together for the next year, we have to have some kind of plan, right?

Jeff Julian: Yeah.

Pamela Muldoon: We don't have the luxury, but I think, and you know this stuff very well, I think this is where agile marketing comes into play because spirit will definitely hit you right in the middle of the night and go, "Oh, what if?"

Jeff Julian: Yeah.

Pamela Muldoon: I love that we do have these creatives as part of the keynote and presentation process because I think sometimes we get so bogged down in the planning process or in where we're supposed to be in six months, that we forget that some of our best ideas come from literally what feels like nowhere.

Jeff Julian: And that's very similar to the response that a few years ago, the Monty Python guy.

Pamela Muldoon: Yeah, John Cleese.

Jeff Julian: Yeah, John Cleese, where he sits down, he's like, "I sit down and come up with ideas, and then I write them down, and I clear my mind again, and I sit there for hours just staring, letting my subconscious mind do the work and my conscious mind give it the stage to do it." When you have a visionary leader, like a Tina Fey in her own company, or a John Cleese in the company of his own brand and then Monty Python, they can have that ability to just dream and throw things out and then allow other people to validate and do some of the "should we or should we not." Most of the time, it's should we, how are we going to do it best-

Pamela Muldoon: Right.

Jeff Julian: -because we can't tell the leader no. As a marketing team, yeah, our big takeaway is, look, if our visionary leader is coming up with the vision for the product or the service side but not how we reach the audience, that's a gap that collectively we need to fill and to continue to provide insights into ways we can align that big vision with where people are going.

Pamela Muldoon: Yeah. I think, if there's one thing in this part of our conversation that, if you're listening, and you're a part of a marketing team where you have to come up with the ideation, please don't discount that process. Unfortunately, I believe we get so busy, especially in enterprise situations, right, Jeff? It's so much going on, and we have so many different initiatives being thrown at us as a marketing team, that we forget the power and importance of taking a step back and just brainstorming and ideating and putting that as an important, consistent part. You should have a weekly or biweekly meeting that's just dedicated- part. You should have a weekly or biweekly meeting that's just dedicated to that, that's my personal belief.

I come from a theater background, right, Jeff. I have not just the radio background, I also come from theater. And I also saw, I don't know if it was a lunch and learn, but we're starting to see more improv-type presentations or teaching improv-type presentations at these marketing conferences, and that makes me so happy, because I have been doing that for the last couple of years with my clients when it comes to content development.

We do the "yes and" exercise, and I think Tina Fey talked about on stage, about the idea is that you can't say no. You have to be able to build from an idea by saying yes. So you start with something, Jeff, an idea, and I say, "Yes, and what if we did this?" And then the next person is, "Yes, and what if we did that?"

Pamela Muldoon: The idea is that there is no bad idea, it's just getting to the gem, and the only way to get to the gem is to not say no. And I think that stops us so much, right? We have compliance, we gotta say no. Or we don't have the resources, we gotta say no. How do we know that? We haven't even gotten to the gem yet, right?

Jeff Julian: Exactly. And when you're dissecting a process or another project you're doing, something like that, if the yeses doesn't work, go with the why. Ask the five why's. In every question, ask why you do it a certain way, and when your answer's there, ask why that's there. And just keep digging to figure out the base of the problem. What is causing it? Is it this fear of compliance, and we really need to sit down with the compliance team on a regular basis to make sure we are pushing the envelope to reach this, and not just setting back and being nervous.

Or, is it sitting down with the executive teams to understand what products we're launching so that way we're not three months out from our release and we're busting to get a website out, and get content out, and try to build an audience in no time.

So many things that the ideation process ... and look team, your leadership will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to go to a remote location, to sit for a week, to bring in some sort of guru, to make them things of the ideas they already have in their head. So, you've got the time and the flexibility on your time to do that kind of work on a weekly or biweekly basis during the lunch meeting, and you can even buy lunch. And it is not going to break the bank.

Pamela Muldoon: And I think that if there's anything that our audience is listening to in terms of what can I take away from these learnings? I think we're hitting on something here Jeff, that adding brainstorming and ideating into your routine of meetings, whatever that looks like, and just have it be that. Don't get bogged down in the how yet, right? Just ideate and bring those ideas to fruition. If we spend more time doing that as marketing and a marketing operation, I think we're going to see much more interesting and unique content.

Kind of to your point with the case study idea, right? Like a trucking company that made a breakthrough because of content. Honestly, the only way we're going to see that is if that trucking company sat down and ideated something pretty fresh and different.

Jeff Julian: Absolutely, and solved problems from the customers perspective. And that's why in agile marketing i always have people start with the story, what's the story of your content? As this person, I need what, so I can what? And fill in that story and make it epic, right? And that will show you more detail about whether or not something's going to be valuable to that person, and if it's going to truly solve a problem, and not just be another crappy here are the top 10 social media marketing tools you need ...

Pamela Muldoon: Right, right. However, there is still something to be said, just to switch gears a little bit. I've known this gentleman for a number of years, I've had the pleasure of interviewing him on previous podcasts, and of course just getting to know him as a wonderful person. So, I got to finally see for the first time Ian Cleary present this year.

Jeff Julian: Yeah.

Pamela Muldoon: He's one of my favorite people. Of course, he's had Razor Social, he's out of Ireland. And he did kind of to your point, there's still a place for good foundational tactical information, right? Again, looking at the audience of who was at content marketing and this changing of the guard.

I think sometimes those of us that have been doing this for a while, we take some of this stuff for granted, right? And there's an entire new audience that need some of the foundation so that they can, when they brainstorm these great ideas, go out and implement. And his presentation was all around the distribution and promotion of content, which Ian does phenomenally himself with Razor Social.

But one thing you can always depend on when you are working with someone like Ian Cleary, whether it's his blog, an interview, or a presentation, is he is going to give you more than you can possibly imagine in terms of actionable items, right? Very go home and you can do this kind of stuff. And he did not disappoint. And you know what he did Jeff?

Jeff Julian: He's a very Irish accent, that's always entertaining.

Pamela Muldoon: He used a beautiful Irish brew, which we adore. But man, he's a smart cookie. And this is a note to all you presenters out there who I don't ... it takes so much work to put these things together. He literally at the end, because you're typing away and ah, can't get all the good stuff, you're typing away. And at the end of his presentation he said, oh, by the way, if you would like the notes to my session, I've already typed them up, and all you have to do is email me and I'll send them to you.

Jeff Julian: Nice.

Pamela Muldoon: And he did. And they are phenomenal, and they're a beautiful piece of content.

So, it just totally sparks another idea of how to continue your conversation once you leave the stage, right?

Jeff Julian: from Jason Miller, right? Big rocks and turkey slices.

Pamela Muldoon: I'm telling you. And of course he's going to write the notes better than I am, because they're his notes, right? It's good stuff. It's fantastic, I thought that was genius, yet what a simple, simple thing. So simple. And I think that's the power of being able to attend some of these presentations is be open to going to some of your foundational presentations as well as your innovative ones, because they will, I guarantee you, remind you of something that you forgot, or provide just a different perspective on what you're currently doing.

Jeff Julian: Yeah.

Pamela Muldoon: And Ian's great at doing that.

Jeff Julian: Yeah, that's awesome. And I think that's a great place to stop and just ... I can't encourage our audience more, if you've never been to content marketing world, or it's been a few years, to go ahead and look at it now. They've got some amazing pricing, the lowest pricing that you're going to get all year. I almost feel like Donald Trump there, it's going to be great. It's the best pricing ... but you can save $100 on the early, early, early bird pricing.

So, jump on it now if you can, and you can use up this year's budget for next year, that's the other hack, right?

Pamela Muldoon: Right.

Jeff Julian: And start to find these people that we've talked about, and consume their content now. Start learning today, not just in September. And really just engage in that education that is going to make you better. I can't ... the severity of this industry, not doing consistent education for themselves and growing on a weekly, daily basis, just blows my mind. In that we measure our conferences annually, and by the ones we could attend, versus ... I'm always going to things, and I'm always learning. It's crazy, I think people need to do more of that.

Pamela Muldoon: Yeah, I think that might actually, again, be another great topic for a future discussion, is the need for professionals in our industry to take this Kayzen approach to their professional career. That constant and never ending learning approach, right? For multiple reasons other than it's just good. Let's face it, what we learned this year, there's going to be something different, innovative, or adjusted, by next year, in a big way.

So, we have to stay on top of it. It's why we're seeing the changing of the guard, because it takes a lot of energy to keep up with it. But what an exciting time, I mean we are media creators, we're writers, we're visual storytellers. We're "selling products through the power of the written word, the visual stimulus, and the spoken word." I mean it's just amazing, it's an amazing time to be in marketing I think.

Jeff Julian: Oh, and I can't wait till the next four or five years as the tech advances, right? So now all iPhones, they now don't have buttons, and augmented reality is becoming a thing. And VR will be a thing. And as marketers, that's a playground that we've never seen before. And it's going to take all these assets we've built over the time, especially for you and me video, audio, text. But a conversation as text, right? The storytelling aspects to come together to produce 360 and in person experiences for people. Oh man, it's going to be so much fun. And the nerd is going to be the one who stands up the tallest and says ... holding their guard up high, saying, "We conquered this."

Pamela Muldoon: That's funny.

Jeff Julian: And I think there's just so much room right now for all these amazing storytellers coming through the marketing teams to grab a hold of the steering wheel and to make sure our companies aren't hitting that iceberg, because we can see it coming, and we can drive those experiences to make the next thing just be amazing.

Pamela Muldoon: Absolutely, for sure. And thanks for the visual, I have a visual.

Jeff Julian: Yeah, exactly, I didn't make that a shirt. Nerd glasses holding VR goggles.

Pamela Muldoon: That's fantastic.

Jeff Julian: Awesome. Well, thanks for being part of the show, Pamela, and thanks for coming back on the air. And just I'll let you send this off this time.

Pamela Muldoon: All right. Well, Jeff, it has been a pleasure to spend some time with you directly, and co-host this great episode. And of course you listening, thank you so much for downloading, subscribing, whatever it is you do to stay connected with us. You are part of the Explicit Content podcast, we are excited to continue great conversations. And until next time, happy marketing.

Jeff Julian: Thank you for listening to the Explicit Content podcast. For more information check out enterprisemarketer.com.

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