Enterprise Marketer - Make Your Marketing Matter.

    Marketer to Marketeer: On their one-year friend-a-versary, we brought Margaret Magnarelli and Mark Masters in front of a camera to get scrappy about marketing: no rules. Well, some rules.

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    Margaret, Managing Editor and Content Director at Monster.com subscribes to employing empathy while creating content. "I feel like in our content marketing climate right now, and in the marketing climate in general, everybody's all about personas and journey-based marketing. Sometimes I fear that that oversimplifies the human experience and we've taken human experience down to, "We have four people and this is what Maria does," and human experience is so much more varied than that. People can come to job seeking for so many different reasons."

    Mark, owner of The ID Group, thinks that's just too easy. "[What pulls] us all together is so different, so [content] has to come from the message that we curate, create, and distribute rather than thinking we've got to start with "your passion"; you've got to start with "your soul"....It has to be consistent."

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    - Margaret Magnarelli!

    - Hello, Mark Masters.

    - So this marketeer to marketeer.

    - Or marketer to marketer.

    - That's becoming a bit too British, isn't it?

    - Yeah.

    - It's like picking up on. So right, because you're one of my favorites when it comes to the content marketing space, these people are not aware of what you do. Why have I come to regard you in such high esteem?

    - Oh my goodness. I have to tell you why you have come to regard me.

    - What do you do and what are you doing?

    - What do I do? I head up content marketing at monster.com and I have worked there for two years and I'm in charge of the strategy on B to B and B to C content marketing. Before that, I was a journalist in magazine and web journalism. Most recently, executive editor at Money Magazine and moneymagazine.com and previously, other magazines as well and I bring that perspective to my work as a content marketer in creating stories and story-forward content marketing. And you? This is, by the way, our anniversary. This is our friend-aversary because we met here last year. So tell me, tell our audience what it is that you do.

    - I'm very glad you asked. So I have a, well, I should use this now just to sell ideas. This is now going big time. This is the Instagram account. So I have a company, but that's irrelevant. But what I totally believe in is how companies or how people can build an audience and nurture this in a space that they own, right? And so everything that I discuss, talk about, is to show people how all this works because things are changing. But small businesses and businesses in general can have a point of view, find an audience, and deliver it in order to be heard. Because of all the noise and everything else that is happening, there's become an even more, it resonates even more when you talk with your journalism background and everything else, the importance of this area of story. So I'm going to ask you a question now because that's made me think. So?

    - Okay, it's working.

    - What? The importance of story. You being a journalist and not necessarily being a marketeer, yeah?

    - Mm-hmm.

    - How has the importance of? I now I said age old thing, but from when you talk to a journalist, what is the importance of being able to tell a story and how easy that is to apply within our businesses?

    - I mean, that's.

    - That's an easy question first. How important is it to tell a story?

    - It is the most important thing. I mean, I think it's crucial that you're telling a story and that you are creating engagement with an audience and I really think, probably, 70% of the most effective content marketing in my mind is content marketing that is utility focused because you're serving a customer's needs and it may not be directly related to your product area, but being able to tell that story and there are different ways of telling a story. You can humanize the story and tell it through people, you can turn it into advice, you can contextualize what the user's problem is and how it fits in among their peer groups and among the history. You can personalize the problem, you can help your users to benchmark information. I think there are many different ways to tell a story, but the most important thing is that you need a messaging framework for your brand and you need to start from a perspective that is, what is your ultimate hope of what you want your audience to walk away with?

    - I'm finding my flair with this, right? So to have that big agency, did their meaningful brand survey, they come out in February this year and when you talk about, you say something as well that resonates and audiences at all these different angles as well. So they did a survey. There was 300,000 people. Look at this, look, I've prepped! So there was 300,000 people and 60% had said brands today, there is no connection. So there's no connection. So the majority of messages that are put in front of them, there's no connection. Again, it's just selling a product. It's just picking up on, when you say look, there's so many different facets to telling a story, what you've got to understand your audience, you're talking to.

    - Yeah.

    - You're obviously a big believer in this whole thing of data, so how did the whole data thing. It were floundering.

    - Yeah. This is vibing.

    - It's just second nature.

    - I think there are two things. I think one is, and I know you don't like the human-to-human thing and maybe we should talk about that after too, but I think one piece of things is empathy. So I think empathy across all of your buyer journey is really important to be able to understand what your target customer is going through and to be ale to create content that is an antidote to their emotional processes in those moments and to try to limit and reduce the valence, the volatility of the emotions that your audience is dealing with. That's how your audience is, that's what friends do for you, right? It's like, they help you through the hard times and you rely on them and you trust them when you need them and I think brands can do the same thing. So I think one piece of it is that and one piece of it is data and science and being able to provide validation to what you're saying. So this is something that is really important to me from being a journalist. Whenever you tell a story, when you start with your net graph of the story, you lead of the story, which is the first paragraph or it's a couple paragraphs down in a feature story. It's a paragraph that tells you what is the story about and my ideal net graph, it sets a couple of sentence of context, of setting the scene, and then you make your argument in the sentence and then you've got a sentence with a piece of data and you've got a sentence with a quote, and that information backs up your argument and I think if you are telling a story without data, then you're making empty claims. It like,

    - Yeah.

    - It's like you're not really, there's nothing for you to fall back on and if you're telling, if you've got data without a story, then you've got meaningless numbers and so I really think you have to pair those things together but also pairing it with that empathy that I was talking about.

    - Because I guess we see that from a lot of people. When you take this data fact or whatever it is, because now we're in a space where all of us our saying, I believe. So we're just jumping in a space and telling everybody what we believe, so from your side is, let's validate all this stuff because then it comes easier for people to buy in, to kind of give the thumbs up and to let companies progress.

    - Yeah, I mean, well, I think that validation is maybe necessary for the person who is on that front end of your marketing, but then there's also somebody who is, or on the front line, but then there's the person who's on the next line and is the VP or the boss that they need to get approval from.

    - Yeah.

    - And having that stat or that data helps them make that case too, as well. So I want to talk. Now it's my turn to ask you questions. So, we talked a little bit about earlier the human-to-human and you have some concerns with that. So talk to me about that.

    - I think it's too twee. I think that a lot of us find these, it's almost like a safety blanket, yeah?

    - Mm-hmm.

    - So as a marketeer, listen, if this is the whole marketeer-to-marketeer thing,

    - Marketer-to-marketer.

    - It's something.

    - Proof's in the pudding what we're talking about, Margaret. So this whole human-to-human thing is that it becomes too. I am, again, it kind of becomes to easy. When we tell somebody how to behave, right? We understand that human behavior and everything else is what makes us tick, but if there's a way to link to what we're talking about is when we have data and we have fact, they can back all this up rather than people, as I've said, rather than thinking that we can all walk around and how we swallowed, start with Y, the whole Simon cynic, how we need to have a purpose, it becomes quite easy how we jump into this little ring, this little bubble that tells everybody to behave and this whole human-to-human aspect was, I'm thinking now, let's show the proof. Let's show how this is work, let's see what goes wrong. We can't live in this altruistic world where everything goes along as planned because it doesn't.

    - Yeah.

    - And there's people that we don't get on with or there's people that there is no connection, but it is about finding those people that we can connect with on a far deeper basis and that's how it builds. I like the idea of how we can pull things out. This is how this behaves here, this is that here rather than sometimes I think we get a bit too lead astray by using almost buzz words. It's a bit like how we see on LinkedIn if someone's privileged or over the moon or humbled that they have 5,000 followers. I see that we jump on to this little, not gravy train, but we jump on to this little train journey that it almost becomes something that you have to be part of. Whereas, let's kind of look at the behavior and how we do impact one another. The bank that fired dative that you say, and also those people within our marketplace that behave rather than being everybody's friend.

    - Yeah, let me ask you a question about that, though. I feel like in our content marketing climate right now and in the marketing climate in general, everybody's all on about personas and journey-based marketing. Sometimes I fear that that oversimplifies the human experience and we've taken human experience down to like, we have four people and this is what Maria does and human experience is so much more varied than that and we see from a job-seeking perspective. People can come to job seeking for so many different reasons. Some of it may be they feel like they're not getting what they deserve in their workplace, they may have a toxic environment, the commute may be miserable, they may just want to change, they may be looking for advancement. How do you, how do you? Do you agree that we're oversimplifying and if so, is there a solution for this?

    - Yeah.

    - Because in a way, it seems like it is marketers trying to provide a framework for themselves, but what is the alternative?

    - That is a good one.

    - Well sorry, I didn't prepare you for that.

    - Let's start it off as joke over what you do is now turning into.

    - Fix the world's problems.

    - Can you give me half-and-hour? I can write this down. Listen, we need, we need something to build upon when we have the, whatever the thing something is called, but I just think that we do need to look deeper at the wider goal because when we talk about personas and I understand. When somebody comes to recruitment and there's so many different people, but again, at the same time, there's so much out there just vying for somebody's attention. So there are so many different elements and characters in a way that, the shapes and everything else that puts us all together is so different, so it has to come from the message that we curate, create, and distribute rather than thinking we got to start with your passion, you've got to start with your soul. And where does that take you? Just because you say you've got to come from the heart and shoot from the heart and just have this kind of real purpose and soul to it, but it has to be consistent. It's like on your side, isn't it? You do the content that you create. How many bits of words do you?

    - Bits of words

    - Content. How may published pieces of work are out there a month from your side?

    - We're creating about probably 10 a week on the B to C side and we're more campaign-oriented on the B to B side, but still a couple per week, yeah.

    - But here's the other thing as well. As long as that stuff aligns, the stuff that we create, 500 or so pieces, however much a month, this is the important thing that I'm seeing where we're all going now is that as long as everything aligns to that stuff that we believe it because I'm going to pick up on what you do at Monster.

    - This has become aggressive now.

    - No, it's lik a plant.

    - No Okay.

    - It's not scheduled, a scheduled. So what everything, for instance, I'm backing this up with you say from Monster.

    - Okay.

    - Is how you bring humanity to the whole job-seeking process, yeah?

    - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    - And so then that aligns itself with every piece of content because that allows direction and that's the whole thing

    - Yeah.

    - At the end of the day that's so important, is somebody don't steer, we don't veer,

    - Yeah.

    - You don't start talking about what you should be doing at the weekend or what color tie to wear for an interview.

    - Yeah, yeah.

    - It all comes back

    - Yeah.

    - To this crux of the DNA of what we're all about.

    - That's what you're about.

    - Which then comes full circle rather than have said the whole happy happy human-to-human

    - Spare your feelings, yeah.

    - Thing that really plays.

    - Yeah, kumbaya content.

    - No, no, no, let's cut through all that. Listen, we need still

    - Yeah.

    - To make money and everything else from your side. Oh.

    - I think if you have a messaging framework, like for us, it is bring humanity to the job search process, helping people through what is a stressful time. It also gives you the ability to prioritize and make decisions, and that, I think, can be hard from a marketing perspective is like, there are so many stories. You could boil the ocean of stories, right? And I think knowing what you stand for and what everything has to ladder up to, it helps me as we have our brainstorming meetings for our team to say, "Yeah, that's a good idea, "but it's not us," or "That sounds like something "our competitors would do. "How do we make this more Monster and how do we "imbue more feeling into this about "the empathy of the audience and showing "how we understand what they're going through," and I think that's the really good thing about having somebody to, at a strategist level, who is at a high enough level, which I think is a weakness that a lot of companies face. They don't bring in a storyteller at a high enough level who can say this is the framework we want to follow from a broad marketing perspective and not simply from a content marketing perspective

    - Yeah.

    - But like, it every communication that we do, it's all communication, it's all stories, and it all has to align.

    - Do you get feedback? Another one, bosh. Mark Ketter has just released a report saying that the US and UK, so marketeers and brands are just totally getting it wrong because it is all transactional-based rather than understanding the consumer. So a simple question. Do people get in touch? Do you have that?

    - Yeah.

    - So if you put something out there,

    - Do we get people responding, yeah?

    - Do people talk about engagement and going deeper with something rather than measuring numbers?

    - Is there a response?

    - Yeah, is there a response to it?

    - Yeah. So we did a series about a year ago that was a 13-part series of a woman who had been laid off and she was a creative director based in New York and she wrote about a chronology of the experience of having been laid off and then getting a new job. And she was extremely raw in her honesty, like really talking about how she had previously had bouts of depression and she was very worried that she was going to slip into that again with this layoff and how she was going to see her psychiatrist to get medication and sort of the pre-anxiety of anxiety, but it was also very funny. She did the whole series with her getting the pink slip and then crying into a hotdog in Times Square when it happened, but laughing at herself in the same moment. And it was really, she was a beautiful writer and it was a beautiful series and she got tremendous response from people who are in the same boat or who had been in the same boat recently and I think that's really important, again, is when you see the empathy working,

    - Yeah.

    - You see the response. Like, you see me, you hear me. I'm going through this too.

    - Because that's the important thing is, how we are shoulder-to-shoulder with one another and I see that that's even more important today, is how we wear the shoes of somebody else

    - Yeah.

    - Rather than dictating how someone else behaves. So I guess that's where it gets murky as a marketeer because we're explaining how we think personas and how we think people should behave. Whereas, if we understand and when you talk about. That's the part I was trying to highlight, that somebody got in touch and explained how it all works because then we can get on a level where we are one-to-one and isn't that what this is all about. Look at that, as marketeers, is how when you talk about empathy and understanding everything else. We're doing it in a real world

    - yeah.

    - Way. How long do you want this for? Another 40 minutes?

    - [Man] Yeah, maybe five, 10? Are you done, or if you want to wrap up?

    - Are there any points that you guys would like to resonate? Such as why we could recognize,

    - Okay.

    - Recommend, enterprise, marketeer or why Agile Marketing

    - Agile Marketing?

    - Is probably one of the books that we should all read.

    - [Man] Talk about, well, your podcast and career finding. Do you have a podcast?

    - Oh yeah, you have a. Do you get involved in your one, your podcast?

    - I do, yeah. I don't have good things to say. We're not doing great at it, so how about if I ask you about it?

    - Okay.

    - Like, I'll do it that way.

    - [Man] All right.

    - Tell me, are you ready?

    - Yeah.

    - Yes.

    - Okay. So we had a podcast for about a year and we're still trying to grow an audience and I think it's a really cool medium and I know you do this too and I'd really like to hear your advice about how you engage with people

    - Yeah.

    - Through podcasting as a medium.

    - It's a brilliant medium. To me, it's how, but when you say it is hard. So we started the podcast in 2015, so it's taken two years to get to a point where you become comfortable. When you say comfortable, in terms of how we present it, how we talk now, when it's not full of ums. Well listen, hope the edited version is not full of ums, ers, and stutters. But it's such a difficult, when it works, it's brilliant. Right? But if it was, if I was part of a big organization and I had to show, after two, three months, figures, everything else, if that's what we're judged by, it would have been shelved. But we've always seen in the past. I was seeing Bay Watch. After its first run from '89 to '99, and I'm using a high-brow example here.

    -Wow, nice, yeah.

    - For you now to come to the marketing world. So Bay Watch was going to be shelved after its first series.

    - Wow.

    - I was Same with Seinfeld.

    - Yeah.

    - Seinfeld was about to be dropped after its first series, but it's this thing where the whole persistence and again, the alignment in having something to say that you believe in and that you start to lean in a bit more, the stand that starts to build the momentum. This year for instance, it's been two people doing it, me and a chap called Ian Rhodes from England. Ian left. So Ian left in June, didn't want to do it anymore because he'd become busy. He'd become busy where his business was taking him wasn't where the podcast was going. And when we talk about creating content and creating content that resonates, you have to understand that you have to make sacrifices to make something work. So how? So the show is still continuing and the viewing figures are increasing, but that is all because of kind of what I did there, the way that I look at is, is because it has managed to build an audience and you've kept with it. So when I say it comes out every Friday morning, it's every Friday morning. And so I'm keeping, and so the people that listen, I'm keeping a little point in their calendar or when iTunes downloads it because again, it is one of those things of where we play the long game. It takes so much time to get right. We can spend a lot of time on equipment and everything else. But as long as the content isn't right, and here's the other thing as well. You have to create something as well that we sometimes miss that has to entertain, right?

    - Mm-hmm.

    - So even like, singing, whatever,

    - Yeah.

    - And messing about, it's always done with a serious way in terms of, you want someone to. If I've captured them for the first 15 seconds, you want them there for another 15 seconds and it's such a hard thing to. It is very hard to get right, but when you do get it right is when you get people listening or people that comment and then that leads to this much more deeper connection and engagement with somebody else. You really start to enjoy what you're doing and I love it. It's a brilliant medium and it's one thing that I would wholly recommend to everybody else.

    - I think it's interesting because you are, you own a company that does content marketing for small companies, but you also do a content marketing on the side for this networking group that you started

    - Yeah.

    - Called You Are the Media. And it's like you have basically content marketed your way to a growing audience and community of content marketers and you talked about how you started this in 2000 and have grown it and are now at the point where you're thinking about hosting your own conference. Can you talk about how

    - yeah. You've built an audience for something over that time?

    - Yeah. So it started, if there was a timeline, probably it was writing an email every Thursday morning since 2012 called You Are the Media and I did it every week, every week, every week. Again, it starts off with nobody. It starts off with no one. We create ourpages and everything else. But over time, it's this whole thing of persistence and commitment

    - Yeah

    - To something, so that enabled me to, sorry, I'm plugging me own stuff now. Good question. Content revolution come out in 2015

    - Like slipping in the CTA for you.

    - An amalgamation of everything I'd learn to then became last year of almost creating a live blog so that You Are the Media become the lunch club. And then what's happening in 2018? I'm so glad you mentioned it. It comes to You Are the Media conference. So again, you have this thing that takes time, but you find something that aligns because at the moment, the podcast doesn't align with everything. There's this whole You Are the Media brands that I've almost stumbled across that has managed to build an audience off the back of it, but there's a podcast as well. But I now see it. All I need to do is change

    - Tie it up.

    - This thing that's called Marketing Home Brew and change the podcast called You are the Media

    - You Are the Media

    - Podcast.

    - Look at that, ideas are born right here.

    - Whoo! But it's how all this stuff connects in this big jigsaw puzzle and that's the same for all of us.

    - Yeah.

    - Isn't it? I guess when we've proven

    - Yeah.

    - Everything else, it's how we have this baked bean jig, you have baked beans in America?

    - Yes, yes.

    - We have this big baked bean jigsaw puzzle and how we piece it together. We're always trying to fit new bits together and instead of 1,000 pieces, it's a 10,000 piece. It just takes time and dedication to get it right, but it just has to all connect because then that makes it easier if it's someone else to say "I get that. "I'm going to come back, I'm going to read, "I'm going to watch, I'm going to listen." Marketeer to marketeer, what a fantastic initiative.

    - But the baked bean jigsaw puzzle is still getting me. I'm trying to imagine what that looks like. Baked beans in a jigsaw puzzle?

    - Listen, when you have reached a certain age.

    - Uh-huh

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