Influencer Marketing for Companies of All Sizes

- Hi, I'm Vishal.

- Hi, I'm Amisha, nice to meet you.

- You as well. Tell me, where do you work? You're at SAP, right?

- Yes, I work at SAP and I run influencer marketing at SAP and you?

- I'm at health technologies and we're talking off camera about how interesting it was that difference in sizes of our companies. How many people are at SAP? How many employees?

- Over 80,000 employees.

- Okay, I've got less than 80 at mine so how big's your marketing department?

- We have several hundred people all over the world. We have global marketing, we have regional marketing, so we're quite large, we're an international software company and we're all over.

- Yeah, ours is a currently here sitting in this chair so I'm about it.

- That's great!

- Yeah, well so tell me, so you run influencer marketing at SAP. Tell me what does that look like?

- So influencer marketing at SAP is, I'll just explain what influencer marketing is for maybe folks that don't know. So influencer marketing for me is working with third party experts that are outside of your typical and normal journalists, traditional journalists and traditional analysts. And these are third party experts that know something about a topic or they're sought after author, or academic or they can be somebody in a association or a user group or community, that have influence over other folks that may buy potentially our software or be interested in the topic of technology and what we're building. So trying to work with those folks to create either content or programs that help influence our buyers. So we really look at influencer markets as a marketing function and that's through content, programs, events, sales. So there's a lot of different thing we can engage with those folks and then we try to create an influencer community around our sales cycle. So that's what influencer marketing is. It includes a lot of pieces at the global level and then we're also working with our regions to create regional programs as well.

- Okay, what's an example of what you might consider one of your better successes working with an influencer?

- Sure, because we're at an event, Content Marketing World, and where there's a lot of influencers here, one of the things that we do is we have an annual conference, Sapphire, every year. It's our big show, it's in Orlando and we bring influencers there that cover all the different topic areas to kind of experience SAP, get to know folks, and then for us to get to know them, because a lot of things are done on the phone. I want people to meet up and have that relationship, so we've invited, last year was our first year of the program, we invited about 12 influencers and they came and the social media amplification was we ended up driving 17% of all the social media for the show, which has tens of thousands of people attending and watching. 17% of all the social media traffic came from about 10 of those influencers. And then this year we had about 15 influencers come and we had several off-line, but the 15 that were on-site drove about 25 to 30% of all the social media impressions. So influencers have a direct impact on the amplification of an event or a message, and then we look to extend the event. So we did campaign videos there that can then go up on our website or sales teams can use after the event with customers so then you're combining the power of an influencer and a customer advocate and then you're putting it on your channel. They may share with their channel, you're customer may share it. So you're then reaching a lot of other people from an event that was just two to three days long. So we look to extend that event.

- Yeah, that's fantastic.

- And then we get a lot of return investment there and we want our influencers also to feel like they got a return on coming to the event, spending time with us and meeting the right folks that we can continue to engage with them after the event. So I know we've talked a lot about influencer marketing and an example, but tell us about in your one man shop. So what does that mean? What does your days look like and what are you working on?

- I have a list of about 14 things I'm working on. I try to limit what I do, 14's a lot.

- [Amisha] Yeah, that's a lot.

- I don't want to add things to it, because the more I add to my to-do list, the more of that it won't get done. Some of the things on there, for example, right now I've got a e-book coming out on gamification, that we're pushing from a marketing that's art. Big rock campaign for the fall. I do a lot of real basic marketing stuff too, that's not as fun as some of the content marketing stuff we get to do, like designing brochures and all the chochkies for conferences, and all those little things you have to do. But I think for me, the part I really like, there's two parts I really like. One is doing independent research, and I'm getting a chance in this job to do that. And the research we're doing we know is gonna have a big influence in our space. We've done one before and it really had a nice sort of resonance and echo inside of the sort of pharmaceutical communities, you know, echo chamber. The next one we hope will be even bigger, but for us independent research is all about driving sales, ultimately. Influencing senior leadership in pharma, VP and C level, trying to sort of make a change in the way they think, which is to advantage to us and really any of the other vendors that work in our space as well. So I really like independent research but my forte or favorite part is building marketing engines. And building them with no budget, no resources, or minimal budget, minimal resources. My budget is less than it would probably take to buy a three bedroom house in Cleveland. That's my annual budget. Somewhere around there. But I like building something that has a lot of scalable components to it. So you build it, you train either a person or a system to keep it going, and then you move on to the next thing. And that's been really helpful for me to try to make a one man, one person show, look like, I don't know, a five person show, 50 person? Whatever I can get. Whatever sort of effect I can get that functions more and drives that business more.

- So I live in the Silicon Valley and so I meet a lot of entrepreneurs, so what is something in marketing for a start-up or for a smaller company? What are some of the tips on prioritizing what you're actually going to accomplish and do, because it seems like there's a lot on your plate? So how do you figure out, like this is the most important thing that needs to get done to help you drive the most value?

- Right, well I think there's a lot of extraneous things that we do in our jobs and I think the first thing we need to do is actually look at it the other way around. What do I not need to do? I don't need to do budget management. I have a finance guy that does that for me. So out, that's gone. I don't have time to write. You know, I'm doing 14 things. I can't sit down and write a white paper, say. Okay, outsource that. So there's certain things you have to have done and it's really a question of what am I gonna do myself and what am I gonna send out to someone else? Where can I deliver the most value? What's my expertise? So of course you're the sort of contractor working with a bunch of sub-contractors for the company and the brand. You know some of the work you're gonna have to do yourself, and what's your sweet spots? If you're an armature photographer as well as a marketer, you know what your sweet spot is. For me, I do a little bit of coding. I found in my experience that when you're doing email marketing, because there's so many email clients out there and it's hard to make it work, it really helps to have someone who stopped coding in 2008, which is me, because you need to code like it's 2008 to make these things work. So I actually end up, I outsource a lot of my coding, but when it comes to email marketing, my guys are too trained. They can't think, you have to think back in 2008 when everything was a problem which is still the way it is if you're trying to deal with companies like Microsoft, say.

- That's really interesting you do coding. I don't think a lot of marketers can say that.

- Well I'm a computer nerd at heart, so that helps. And we do some influencer marketing. So my company does gamification sort of experiences for pharmaceutical brands, so we brought the world's expert in gamification in, the guy who wrote the book on gamification, and we're writing an ebook with him and bringing him to conferences and co-marketing with him. Those things are huge for him. It gives him a chance to meet a new community a bit and work in that community. And for us of course we get to sort of reestablish our expertise in this one niche space. Tell me an example of from you side, can you walk through an actual campaign with an individual? I know you were telling me a little bit about some of the filming you do. What does that feel like and how have you grown it to that level?

- So when some of the stuff we've done is obviously events and that's in the top of the funnel, right? That's awareness, building awareness, getting the word out, whether it's a product launch or a message or a big event like our annual event or a specific customer. How do you get beyond from the top of the funnel, I think that's what you're asking, how do you move along?

- Yeah, yeah.

- So you can start a campaign with awareness obviously. Because you're trying to drive everyone somewhere. So certainly we have, you have PR, you have AR, you have some of this awareness building, branding. That's all awareness, right? Top of funnel activities. And how can you get influencer marketing to demand gen and that's really the heart of our program because that's where we can really help. I really believe that influencer marketing can move sales, especially in B to B. B to C is very different. It's a little bit more wild, wild west. You're looking more for celebrities and in B to B brands we're looking for those macro influencers that are driving IT, or driving HR, or driving CFOs, so it's a very different celebrity person we're looking for. But having found the right influencers, what we try to do is create a community as a group around a topic. So we just had this launch of Leonardo, which is our new innovation digital system. So at SAP, so we're combining machine learning and IOT and bring some design thinking on top of it, or to analytics and big data. And so our customers are able to innovate on their core technologies. So you're running finance but you need to innovate because you now blockchain is coming. When you have IOT how do you innovate across an entire big system? So we're able to come in and offer that innovation through this Leonardo. So this was something new that was being launched. It was announced at our annual show and then we had another customer event, Leonardo Live, in Frankfurt in June. So when we were thinking about that event we thought about okay we had some awareness stuff that happened at Sapphire. What could we do that would be more lead-gen, demand-gen for this, so we actually created an ebook. It's an interactive ebook. And we did a soft launch at Sapphire but we're gonna kinda bring in all the different sections that are represented in the system and drop it at this customer event so people have something that they can go to before the event or I'm sorry, after the event, right? We can send it out to people, thanks for coming. Here are some things. So it's something that you want to create more engagement and what we did was we grabbed about 32 influencers and we got quotes from them across all these different, whether it's machine learning, analytics, big data, and we had these different pages of quotes and how it all ties together. We had a nice conclusion done by an influencer and then we dropped it on the first day of the event. So we had all 32 influencers, we reached out, we had 100% engagement rate from the influencers promoting the book and then we got a lot of pick up because we were using the hashtag of the event. We had five influencers actually onsite, and they were actually speaking at the event and doing break-out sessions at the event for the customers that were there. It was a 1,500 person event, so it wasn't a massive event, but is was a very focused customer event, but we were able to extend that event to other folks. We also did some live broadcasts from there and we got some organic things happening where we had an influencer talking to another influencer for her channel and we had the big SAP logo in the background and they were talking about the technologies that were being talked about at the show but from their perspective and then they actually said well is saw this session where this customer was talking about this, which I thought was interesting. They really didn't talk about us, but they were really talking about the examples that they saw. You can't really buy that kind of organic conversation. I mean that was a really great conversation. If you are interested in those technologies, I want to implement them, or you're thinking about them as a company or as a person, whether you're the CIO or you're somebody in IT or you're a business executive. Because a lot of business executives buy technology now. It's not just IT. They can watch that and walk away with something of value, so that's why doing the ebook, by doing the live videos, by doing the canned videos, by having all these social media cards. We had social media cards for each and every one of these quotes that we could then drop in the market, that we could give to the influencers. So we gave them social media assets. We didn't pay anybody to be in the book. We obviously for the folks to come speak because they actually had to create presentations so when you're looking at a program like that, that's like from start to finish, you have an asset, you have some live stuff happening, you have some stuff that extends and then after the event you things to send out to folks to kind of keep them in engaged. Then as a follow on with three of the influencers we're doing a webcast. So that's gonna be lead-gen, so that's gonna have registration around it so we could take them from the book or the social media card and now we're gonna take those same assets and now point them to this webcast and those three influencers that are involved in that webcast are gonna then point, so then we'll have leads. So it's kind of like you can take people through from top to middle and then eventually all the way down to hopefully customers and advocacy.

- And that's a compacted time too, because you're not talking about a year. You're talking about...

- [Amisha] Two or three month timeframe, yeah.

- That's it, so that's nice. When you're sort of describing the tactics you're putting into play, and I'm sort of resonating back to this idea that 850,000 employees, is that right, 850K?

- [Amisha] No, 80,000.

- That's a lot of employees. Okay, that's like a country, right?

- [Amisha] Yeah, I know 80, that's the amount.

- Okay, 80,000 versus the less than 80, we do the same thing as you at a smaller scale but and I was thinking I'm literally in the middle of planning the exact same thing you're way.

- [Amisha] And we don't have a huge budget either.

- But you don't need budget for that. It's not about budget, it's about sweat equity too.

- [Amisha] Yes, that's true.

- But you know, I been thinking a lot about this, and maybe because I had to create a presentation for this conference, but there's a theory I have that as marketers we have a very limited set of things we can do. There's not a million. There's 30 maybe? 35, 40, somewhere around there. And so you're not breaking ground by picking, I'm gonna do an ebook, I'm gonna do a webinar, or any of that. These are just the tactics, the science, right? You need to be able to know how to do it and know how to measure and that's what we learn at conferences like this or on our own. What I like it the art that comes into it and that's I think where the creativity or intuition comes in, where you've gotta figure out what's the message, what's the most creative way of combining these things and making it work within my limited set of resources. And I think regardless of the size of your company or the size of your budget, you always have limitations. And understanding those limitations at the beginning I think is really helpful in knowing how to get the most out of it and take advantage of it. Not reinventing the wheel, of course. You don't need to reinvent the wheel. You need to find a unique way to take that wheel and use it in your own campaigns and strategies. And from that I think it's important to learn the science, to learn all the techniques out there. How can I integrate a webinar software with Zapier, which then integrates with SAP, which integrates with whatever, right?

- Right.

- You have to know that. We have to become technical in a lot of ways but we have this added requirement to be extremely creative and on-demand. And that's where success comes in, is finding that blend between the two. And I think for the people I'm influenced by as a marketer, that's what I see in what they do and what I really appreciate is this ability to combine the two. And I think that's really challenging.

- Yeah, I agree with you because a lot of times we look at things that we're doing, and you're right, there's like the bag of tricks and the tools we have and then you need to know how can we be creative within that? And then also, how are you always creating value? Because some things that worked even two or three years ago don't work as effectively any more because people are always on their mobile devices or user experience is so different. And expectations are different so I think we have to learn. Maybe the tools are the same but the technologies might change, and the way we reach people might change as well. We need to be shorter, more concise, my crisp, right? But the message still needs to be there. And then I think the challenge becomes how do you do that and how do you become unique? Or how do you really stand out? And I think that's where some of that creativity can come in.

- Yeah, and I think what you were saying earlier, how do you create value out of that? So writing a blog post about X means nothing unless it's part of a longer customer journey and it's influencing it. You know again, because we're small we have a limited set of goals. We're a start-up. We have very limited set of goals and so from that I've sort of then developing a very limited set of themes that we talk about. No, we don't need to talk about a thousand things. We talk about three things but we constantly make sure that they're in everything we do, over an over again, ad infinitum, to the point where it's so boring to me to speak about it sometimes. It drives me crazy, but my prospects haven't heard it yet. It's not old stories to them and I think there's a level of needing to bore yourself a bit, because you're telling the same story over and over again in a way. Not to want to change everything all the time, which I think is probably one of the most difficult for us to control is not creating constant new fresh things. I don't know where I'm going with this train of thought.

- No, but this is interesting. No because you're talking about it does get the same message but if you're not beating that drumbeat and you have to beat it over and over, because you're right, not everyone has heard it. Even whether you're a large or a small, right? So you have to kind of make sure the message resonates, but resonates many, many, many different times in many different ways. So how do you, that may be boring for us, but then I think the challenge is how do we make it interesting for the people on the other end? So what are some ways that you're finding, you know how do you break through that noise? Because I'm sure in your market just like in ours, there are other competitors in it and if you take everybody's labels away they all start sounding the same, so how do you feel like you break through the noise in what you do?

- Sure, so I market to marketers, which is ah, I mean I know how I am. What you want my name? No I'm not giving you my name. I know what you're gonna do with that. So one of the first things that I had to accept was that I'm not going to know who you are. I'm gonna have to market to you as an anonymous entity tracked in my marketing automation system and that's just fine. You'll come to me when you're ready. I think the way to do it is to find interesting ways that match your product or technology or service where the marketing itself becomes in structure and it sort of format, something that adds to it. So as an example, and I'm still trying to break the model now, so I haven't figured it out yet. You if you got look at my stuff, you're not gonna see it yet. But I hope in three months you will. We do gamification platforms. I should be using games everywhere. To me that's something where if you can make your marketing itself give the user the experience of what service you offer, that's unique enough because that's your, as Joe Pulizi says, find your unique message or your tilt and really go into that. Well your tilt should be in your marketing as well and in your structure, if at all possible. It's not always possible but for a company like mine, absolutely. I previously did science marketing for a university and these were investigators, scientists, inventors. Their stories were what we were sell. So great, let's tell these stories and share it as if you were in a room with them or a lecture hall with them, which is the language that these folks deal with, you know, scientists. So you gotta speak their language but you gotta make it fresh and somehow sort of maybe make the structure of what you do mimic your actual product or service, if you can. It's a challenge. I haven't figured it out, if you got ideas tell me please.

- No, but I think it's interesting cause gamification is so interesting, right? We're always thinking about oh that's a very interesting people. People use gamification for employees now, for their products, to tell stories to engage people. Or to do leader boards to get people excited about a product or what have you, whether it's B to B or B to C. so I think that's really interesting especially in the healthcare space, so I think that's...

- Yeah, well you know our motto is the same as my marketing motto. First you engage, then you motivate to take action. In our case we're motivating patients to take their medicine but when you look at marketing, the first thing we've got to do is engage you. We gotta get past that one second, glance, delete. How do you do it? You've got to get down to the minutiae of it. What is the subject line? How many subject lines can we test? Do we use a positive or a negative messaging in that subject line? Can we get it down to six words instead of the nine that you proposed? I was just on the phone with one of my colleagues and we were going through subject lines. And me I was like no, you gotta put dinner and drinks first cause they want free drinks. That's what we're gonna sell. Sometimes you have to get to that really tiny sort of moment that you're trying to get a person to have some level of change. I'm gonna change even if it's just the tiniest bit. And then your key is what are your larger changes you need? So for software companies, maybe it's something as simple as well I want them to see my demo. I feel like they're never gonna buy my product unless they see my demo. That's a required process. So you start pointing at that and everything's about request a demo, request a demo. And now you've got everything built and you're aiming for that target, but I think you're missing something because before they can request a demo, you've got five other stages that they might go through. So what's key is trying to find every possible iteration, as you can, within your limitations of time and budget, and start to aim for the things a little closer than the required one. Can you get them, well you know if people read an ebook and then visit four pages, are they more likely to take action? And I think most importantly, as you're working with your prospects and trying to engage them and move them toward the action you want, whatever it is. Not buying your software or your service. You're thinking much earlier than that as a marketer. As you're sort of doing that I think you need to ask yourself the question too, what are you learning about them? What are you learning about how they engage? So the first lesson I learned, scientists seem to have no problem giving me their information. It was fantastic. They'd give it to me, tell me everything. I don't know why. Marketers won't do it and I learned the lesson pretty quickly after spending some of my budget on some advertising. No way, they're not going to give it to me. Okay, fine. So let's rethink how we do things. That' seems to help a lot.

- I think that's a really important lesson that you're pointing out, that sometimes what you think is going to work, doesn't work and you have to be willing to give up something. Maybe it's not getting all the information but then knowing that you're getting engagement on some level and that's a way to start instead of there. Or sometimes we try to get people to do the demand-gen piece and we're getting that but maybe we're not getting the reg, but that's okay because we're engaging those folks and maybe there does need to be another step. Cause the buyer's journey isn't just from A to B anymore. It's kind of like all over the place. There's mobile, there's this, there's that. So how do you, you hit on that, like how do you hit all those different points that are circular or sideways or zig-zag to get them to then okay, I'm gonna do this demo. Or okay, I'm gonna give you reg. Or okay, I'm going to get into a real conversation with you about X, Y, and Z, right? To kind of get to that sale or what have you.

- Yeah, and I think that's in a nutshell, you're describing the content marketing model which is we're going to be a valuable resource for you in our special niche. And as we sort of engage with you with content related to whatever that topic is. International global businesses managing back-end services, you know that's a very large topic and so I know you have a lot of different areas but to show your expertise and to create value for them. In my case I have a few spots I can create value. Finding those holes that exist and then becoming the voice for that I think is essential. And while I love giving my budget away to trade magazines to put my display ad there and I'm not gonna stop that, even though I get like .02% engagement rates. And I'll tell you the reason I'm not gonna stop that is because it's still an advertisement, people are still seeing it, they don't need to click it. What you need to do, I think, with display ads is make the view of the ad for three seconds the entire engagement point. If you think about it that way you could find more value. You don't need click throughs. But I think when you start to think about how you can own your media in any way, shape or form, especially if you're budget restricted, you're gonna fid you have a lot more power and potency and then a key I think along that is is that level of humanity. We try to automate everything we possibly can. We've gotta sneak some humanity and personalization in there and that doesn't mean just making sure that first name shows up on the third line and company name show up on the fourth but who is the person and why should they care about you. You're not selling to a company anymore. You're selling to an individual. And I think that's really important in how we relate to our prospects now. I'm an individual and I'm selling to you as an individual. What are your pain points? What are your needs? What are you looking for? Why would you give me your precious time? I mean 20 years ago people didn't read content about their business at home, ever. Maybe we'd read the newspaper or a book, but we'd never do that. Now 40, 50% of what I read at home relates to my business world and I think it's pretty commonplace now for people to be there. So as content and influencer marketers, how could we start to find our niche, our tilt, and own it in some way? What can you be the expert in?

- Right, I mean that's why I think, and bringing it back to the influence marketing piece, I think that personalization and personal touch comes through the influencer, right, because then they're telling, maybe not even your story, but maybe they're talking about machine learning. Cause everyone's like oh it's all about machine learning. How are you gonna bring that in to a large company or even a small company and really innovate? What does that look like for you? Where do you begin? People don't even know, right? So they're looking for that research online. So when you have the influencer talking about that topic from that outside in perspective. And then you're lopping on your point. And maybe it's not even about yourself but it's your point of view on how where to begin then you kind of become a trusted, you can become a trusted advisor before you even get into oh now we have software. That's the key. It's like being personal, having the personal touch so someone will say oh I care about this topic too on a different intrinsic level, not a product level. But a different level and then you would go from there. No one is sitting there saying oh I'm gonna go out and buy some software today. People are thinking about I have this issue at my company, how am I going to automate or how am I going to innovate because I know my competition is, so I can stay ahead or really bring some more safety in or it becomes a little bit bigger than just automated. Like safety issues, keeping food fresh for customers. All those kinds of things that go into the variety of things that we use technology to help us be better as humans and provide better service and better life, quality of life. Those are the things that are important to people, right? That speak to their hearts and minds. so I think influencers speak to more the hearts and the minds, then we can come in and say here's a solid solution to your problem eventually along the path. But I think the path has to have that kind of intrinsic personal value.

- Yeah and that's awareness, right? And they don't need to be aware of your specific answer for their problem. They just need to be aware that they have a problem and that there are in general options. I think for us, when we do influencer marketing, when we do independent research, it has to be about the larger story. It can't be an influencer coming in and saying well health is the best, no, it can't be, it has to be--

- Because then their audience is also going to say well that's very disingenuous, right? And sometimes a lot of people say oh what if an influencer comes and they say something negative or you know. I mean you have to build a relationship and you have to be ready. And actually some of the feedback that we get is critical feedback and I think it's great cause then we can take that critical feedback and say okay, this is what is being said. This is how it's being perceived. It can actually help us better our message or better something versus hurt us. Because those things are gonna be those critical feedbacks are going to be said anyways out there in the real world so it's really nice when, I feel that that's something that's invaluable that we get back is some of that feedback that we can then take and say okay maybe we should be taking about different way. Maybe even if it's a product level feedback, that's helpful I think for the brand.

- Yeah, it's you know, turning failure or mistakes into fodder and tools. It's a way to sort of turn it around. I think we're close to done. So I wanted to ask, maybe we could ask one last question. So my, and for me it's resonating back to the idea the 800 million trillion employees of SAP versus the me and these and these two guys. No, we're bigger than that. And I think it's the idea that as marketers as people involved in a trade, I think we share a lot of the same problems as well as answers. And so I'm curious when you look at your own job and what you do, what do you find the biggest blockades to be to creating success in doing what you do? What's the biggest limitation for you?

- I think sometimes is probably for you the same thing, sometimes you only have so much time and resources and budget, right? So and we don't have a massive budget for this. This is something new. We do have some and it's gaining more and more traction. We started with a pilot and now it's a global program and it has regional legs and you want to take it to the next level and get more sales involved and really expand our program across the entire company but one of the things is it's always very so much you can do, what do we need to priortize to get there, what are the resources we need to get there and how are we gonna get there in a real way because these things don't happen overnight. It's like brick by brick. So it's figuring out what is the next best brick to put in and to kind of continue building. But again you you know you have to take a look and say what are the right priorities to get there cause it's not gonna just happen overnight. Even when you are a large brand things don't just happen overnight. You need to build on it and see what's working and then build best in class going forward.

- For me the word that comes up is patience. You have to have some level of patience that it's going to take some time.

- [Amisha] And persistence as well.

- Yes.

- [Amisha] Patience and persistence.

- We're done, you got that you're good. I think we're done, I got nothing else to say.

- I wanted to ask you one last question before we go. We were talking a little about influencer marketing. We talked about what you're doing. So I know you were content marketer of the year here. Is there any advice that you would impart, cause you're an influencer actually to brands or to people about from an influencer perspective versus a brand perspective? What are some things you would impart on people?

- I don't consider myself an influencer, especially in places like this. For me it's like holy cow, these are like, you know. To me content marketers are like super-stars, like the ones I know. Like oh my God, there's Arta Falcon. There really is Arta Falcon right behind us. And for me that's like holy crap so, it's hard for me to answer that question cause I'm like a fan boy at these conferences and really excited to learn. And I think maybe if anything as you're sort of out there and trying to be truthful and who you are, be that wholly and if you're learning, share your learning and share your failures and share your problems and share the sort of similarities that we all have because I truly believe that's what we do as a trade, we're tradespeople at the core of what we do in the same way that people that work with hydrolics are tradespeople and bring their own art to what they do.

- Well I think you are an influencer because you hit the nail on the head. I think authenticity's very important and being real and I think that's biggest value of influencers, that authenticity.

- Yeah, yeah, cool well it's been a pleasure meeting you.

- Nice meeting you, thank you. Very nice to talk to you too.

- Take care.