Clearing the Air on Personas, Analytics, and SEO

- Ardath.

- Andy it's so nice to see you!

- It's great to see you. The last time I saw you was in Boston, we had breakfast together.

- That's right.

- And we were eating, muffins and blueberries. At MarketingProfs B2B Forum. Which is coming up in a month.

- I'm looking forward to it.

- Yeah.

- [Andy] And here we are in Cleveland.

- We are.

- So I feel like this is like you are in the center of this giant community of content marketers. Like when I first heard about this whole orange thing you were already here like in the middle of it all.

- We'll I've being them since I started in 2011. Which was over at the Renaissance Hotel, there was 200 people.

- Wow.

- And now we have the entire conference center.

- [Andy] Yeah.

- So lots of change.

- And it's not the only thing you do here. You're also part of the training. You do, I mean you're deep in the CMI community, right?

- Have been for a long time. Yeah, I've been an instructor for their CMI academy or university.

- Yup.

- Whatever they call that. And I do a workshop every year and a session, like you.

- Yup, we do what we can.

- [Andy] We're here to teach.

- We are.

- Yeah.

- Yeah. And it's exciting all the changes. It's not the same as it was just a few years ago.

- Yeah. It's evolving and it's fun to see. There's always new faces.

- There are.

- And. And new tactics and new channels. Something that's been new, I know it's brand new on the scene this was never done before, something called account based marketing.

- Oh don't get me started. Come on, Andy. You know, I mean, the thing for me is I've been doing what they now call account based marketing for 20 years. And anybody who's marketing in B2B to a group of stakeholders has been doing account based marketing or should be. Right, forever, so it's now new it's just that we have a fancy name for it now.

- Yeah.

- But it's also the advance of technology. So you can now see things you couldn't see before and gather the data. Where you didn't have that visibility before. But it's surprising to me how people have latched onto it like the next silver bullet. But yet they haven't done the foundational work to drive a decent B2B content marketing program, let alone an ABM program.

- So is the foundational work for B2B and account based marketing different from the foundational work that we've always been doing as marketers, going back to traditional era?

- Well I think the biggest difference from a marketing perspective is the ideal customer profile and the targeted accounts. So that's the biggest difference. That was usually left to sales to, you know to decide. And so marketers would target personas. And companies hopefully in their sweet spot area. But then there wasn't really coordination with sales, so I think that's the biggest difference.

- [Andy] I see.

- And I think it's necessary now because we need to get salespeople involved earlier.

- [Andy] Yeah.

- And so when you look at it from what has now become ABM, it's more about about marketing enabling sales.

- [Andy] Yeah.

- To build the relationships and get in the conversations, more so than, so it's a connected thing all the way across.

- [Andy] Yeah.

- More so than marketing gets a lead, nurtures the lead says, "Okay it's now sales ready. "Here you go sales." And then sales takes it and,

- Chuck it over the fence.

- does whatever they do.

- Something, whatever they do.

- And there's nothing consistent and the poor buyer is sitting there going, "Okay wait, what happened?"

- Right?

- Right.

- And so I think the difference there is attempting to tell a coordinated story across the entirety

- Yeah.

- and have marketing and sales be seamless. Because when you think about it, does your buyer say, "Gee I'm with marketing right now. "Oh no, I'm with sales right now," they don't care. They just want to have their problem solved, right?

- Right, right.

- So you know, so I think it's a bunch of pullabalu, but. You know the biggest thing that irritates me, beyond anything else are the ABM gurus out there who are saying, "Well now that you're focused on accounts "you don't need personas." And so I'm sitting there thinking, "Okay, so there are no more people in these companies." It's all robots now and, you know since it's your target account, talk to the building inside of the people in the building. And so it's not, they seem to think that something changes like the humanity goes out of it if you're doing account based marketing. And I'm not quite sure I follow that. You know riding on the coattails of that is the, you know the development of AI. Where I have a bunch of vendors calling to tell me how they can create personas using data. You don't need to talk to anybody, just use data. And the biggest problem I have with that is there's not context. You can look at all the data you want, but you don't know why that behavior happened, or what that persona was thinking at the time. And so I'm all for data. But it's how you use it, I think. That's one of your areas of expertise is the data, so what are you seeing new with data?

- Well I want to get better results from every action I take so I use, website traffic data, I use Google Analytics. To help me make decisions about what to focus on in terms of topics or formats or key phrases if I'm doing search. Open and click through rates if I'm doing emails. Yeah I believe in using data to make decisions because it's better than just going on a whim or opinion or preference.

- [Ardath] Right.

- But an interesting example here for you because my audience is pretty well defined and the marketing funnel is pretty short. You work with people who have a very long, like middle of funnel, like there's a lot of nurturing maybe. And I know that you're big on data. I mean you're known for the insights you extract from platforms like Linkedin when researching possible personas,

- Yeah.

- maybe that's one of them, but how would you say what's a good tactic for marketing enabling sales? Or how to collaborate with sales to get better data, make better decisions and do better B2B marketing?

- Well I think, really, well I'll give you an example from a recent project that I did. Where I've been helping this company really hone their personas, develop a content strategy, do serial story telling across the buying process to create momentum and all of this. Then we looked at their DGR, their inside sales team. And they're sending out emails that say, "Hi, this is Jim from so and so just calling to see "if I can get 15 minutes to tell you about my company." Who cares, really? You know and then the next email was, "In case you didn't see my last email, "I'm trying to follow up with you. "Could we set a time to talk?" Why, who cares? And so we've now gone to that and said, "Let us help." And shown them what we're doing and to re-draft it all of their emails to be around, something that would pertain to a piece of content.

- Yeah.

- That a lead look at. And saying, "You know you just read content about this issue "I have some insight about this issue that might apply to "your business and how we could help you. "Do you have 15 minutes and I'll share "some insight with you?" Or whatever. Created a string of emails that relate to behavior that prospects, may have just done, right?

- Interesting.

- So then get triggered and on to the CRM for that. And they're seeing a tremendous transformation in the amount of calls they're able to book and meetings they're able to have. Just because they're now talking about something that's relevant rather than just saying, "Hey give me 15 minutes so I could talk "to you about my company."

- Yeah.

- Like who cares?

- Context.

- Yeah.

- So the email is still maybe a cold email, do we have evidence that this prospect has visited the website?

- Yes.

- Or do we know? How well do we know in these examples that the audience is gonna be interested in that topic? Or how is that discovered?

- Right well the lead downloads that content or views that content it triggers an email, we have the emails loaded from the reps, so it triggers the email from the rep. And the reps then alerted that we sent an email,

- [Andy] Wow.

- so they're ready to follow up. And so it's really cool actually. But it puts the rep in a place of having a valuable conversation, and imparting expertise instead of just, "Let me tell you about my company, "so I can sell you something," type of thing. Which nobody wants to do, you know.

- That's super lame--

- Which buyer ever said,

- [Ardath] "Please call and try to sell me something?"

- Zero percent of prospects have ever said, "Send me a cold email." So it's sounds like just a research piece determining what the conversation should be. There's a set up piece of creating the content, including the follow up emails and the download itself, and the lead magnet and the call of action. There's a technology piece where it's sent out as a follow up in the activity piece. Where is the big investment or the obstacle for companies in that set of you know, required actions and set up and writing and follow through?

- Well most of the investment is the front end, okay so the personas, right to develop the right content marketing strategy and then the story line and developing all that content, that creates the initial engagement that you can then build off of.

- [Andy] Yeah, yeah.

- So most of my clients already have the technology they just may not be using it the in most optimal way. But you have to have that foundation of the personas and the content and the story in order to put the rest of it together.

- [Andy] Right.

- So I think that's, and that's time consuming. Right so.

- The research on the content piece is bigger than the--

- Yeah.

- Is the technology expensive for these things? I mean not to name names, I'm actually not in that world. Do we need to spend $1,000 a month on some fancy automation tool?

- Yeah you're gonna spend more than $1,000.

- Okay good to know!

- But uh.

- It helps.

- You do because unless you're gonna do it all manually. And so for my clients they're trying to interact with 20,000 accounts, right?

- Right, right, right.

- Or leads or however you want to term it, but there are thousands and thousands that they have to engage with should the activity occur. And doing that manually is ridiculous. So you do need the automation. But the most important thing I think about is the integration of the data across silos. So you need your marketing automation integrated with your CRM,

- Right.

- integrated with your data analytics. You know so that you actually get that visibility. Because otherwise I think what I see a lot of my clients struggling with is the marketing team has to access all these different applications in their tech stack in order to figure out what's going on. And by the time they manually compile everything it's all changed, right, because two weeks has gone by or whatever.

- That's what I was wondering about. And this what really interests me because I'm always trying to iterate and get better results knowing that I'm gathering data. So in this process, let's say it's set up. And let's say I'm your client and I've got 20,000 prospects and a team of sales people and marketers and we connect all those dots. What happens or when does it happen that I get new input about that download is out performing or under performing or the conversation changed so the audience is following this trend now? Or you know this sales person is good at that follow up, or this topic is on fire right now or? Where does the data come in after the set up to iterate it and improve and optimize the system?

- Well there's a number of different ways. I mean now, and you use Google Analytics, right? So it's basically what next day? You get it, right?

- Sure, yup.

- When it updates. The difference is what you're looking for. So for example if you're looking for a hot topic it may be that you see a view spike on something. If you're looking for patterns or trends you need some time.

- Right.

- Right? So it depends on what you're looking for. The thing for me is you need to figure out what to benchmark. So you've got to have a plan for what you want to measure, like impactful. Right, so if we go back to ABM, what we're looking for now is engagement and coverage. How many contacts at your target accounts and how much engagement are you building with them, so that we can have the better opportunity of getting sales involved? So you want to look at dwell time on pages, how many of the contacts are actually engaging with the content? And what have you and if you see a spike in that behavior, then you know there's something to take action about.

- I love it.

- And so. But it depends on what you're looking for. Like I said if you publish something on a hot topic and all of a sudden you've got 1,000 downloads, good create more of that offshoot, you know, write on that topic. And you can find that out pretty fast.

- Yeah.

- Right? But some other things take time. You know like if you're monitoring progression, like are you moving people from one stage to the next stage? Right by what they're based on what they're interacting with, what questions they're getting answered with your content. That could take, you know, a month, what's the change from last month to this month? Or a quarter?

- Yeah.

- Right depending on your sales site, or your buy time and so it just depends.

- Do you have ways to, for the sales team to pass information back to the marketers about what conversations they're having, what topics this audience is asking about? How is this, or is the conversation two way?

- It depends on the maturity of the client. So quite often my clients it's a manual conversation thing. Like every Monday morning in the meeting. You know they get feedback and anecdotal stuff. Some of my clients actually have a closed loop process where sales can provide feedback. Or they have the capacity like through a post a content management platform or something like that. Where they can see salespeople have access to this content

- I see.

- so they know they're using it, so they can go get feedback from sales about it. And so it just depends on how they've set that up. But it's one of the hardest things is to make sure that they're talking to each other, because in a lot of companies this is still new.

- Right.

- Yeah.

- Sales is used to saying, "Don't play with my toys.

- Yeah, yeah.

- "You keep on your side, "and I'll keep on my side." And so I'm doing a lot of work with industrial manufacturing companies right now. Which have always been product driven. And they're now losing market share because their competitors are embracing content marketing, customer focus and all that. So they're trying to shift, but the way they've always done it is, sales does the selling,

- Right.

- marketing produces the product briefs and the

- Never between shall meet.

- you know, right. And so trying to figure out how you do create that

- Yeah.

- working relationship. When sales has never seen value from marketing. Because they produce the data sheets or whatever.

- Yeah, there's a culture, culture gap there.

- You know. But the other thing that you said something when we were talking earlier about how you're using data to figure out what topics.

- [Andy] Yeah.

- And what content to repurpose

- Sure.

- and that kind of thing. So what are you looking for when you do that?

- Well, there are two kinds of, of articles on your website, any website that will get the greatest benefit from an update or from attention or love or care or improvement. Those would be the articles that are already attracting a lot of visitors. For example, they're ranking very high in search, but the search traffic is declining, the rank is declining. Other people are publishing new stuff, better stuff on this topic and you're no longer the best page on the internet for that topic. And when this happens, sometimes there's like a few blockbuster posts that most websites have a small number of articles that are driving most of the traffic. If you don't pay attention to those few unicorns or the champions, you know the ones that are really winning there's a risk that if they fall in traffic your total top line traffic will decline a lot. Not that uncommon.

- So even if it's something that you wrote like five years ago that's still pulling a lot of traffic?

- If it's an important topic, if it's relevant to my audience and if it's valuable then yes. If it's an irrelevant post that who cares? It doesn't matter and the traffic you were tracking wasn't high quality anyway.

- Right.

- But yeah there's lots of articles on lots of our websites that are excellent. But they're not as excellent as they used to be. They were driving tons of traffic, right? If it's mouse traps and cheese this is the best cheese, it's attracting lots of visitors. And then as that begins to decline your total traffic declines a lot and that page is now much less visible because it went from page two to page one. Those should be updated and improved and will improve rankings and make a big difference, a big impact on your traffic almost immediately. The other ones are the articles that are converting a great percentage of visitors in to subscribers.

- [Ardath] Okay.

- So most websites have a small number of articles that convert a much bigger percentage of visitors into subscribers than others. The typical website will have visitors. Will have articles that convert one percent of visitors into subscribers. And others that convert .001% of visitors to subscribers. If you don't know, if you don't have visibility into that, if you've never calculated, your conversion rate from visitor to subscriber per article, then you don't know which of these things you should be promoting most or promoting best. Or you don't know where your best mouse traps are.

- [Ardath] Right.

- So this is Barry Feldman's quote, "If the website "is the mouse trap, the content's the cheese." Once you know what your best mouse traps and your best cheese are, first of all you can make internal links between those and connect the traffic champions to the conversion champions and get better results almost immediately by making one link.

- Yeah.

- Like a next link to go to the, but the other benefit if just that you're going to protect your top line traffic and search rankings and visibility. Your going to promote those things however you can, put them on your homepage. put them in your email signature. That are doing the best job at list growth. So yeah that's maybe an hour of analysis that will show you which things need the most love, which articles will benefit from a light re-write or an improvement or going deeper on the topic. We just mentioned several trends already. If you were talking about in one way, now the conversation moved over here, you can just jump into that, stay in that conversation. So yeah, I use data to make decisions on that how to make better decisions for what to promote or what to improve. And my content, I'm looking toward a strategy of updating all things.

- I know I love that because you should if you have an invest there, why wouldn't you re-purpose? It makes so much sense. So let me ask you this because I keep seeing this everywhere it's like. There used to be this strategy for SEO, all the things you needed to do. Excuse me. And now what I'm seeing is, "Okay it doesn't matter "anymore, because all Google cares about "is quality content." So if you write quality content you're gonna do well in search engines. So do you no longer need to have your key word in the title in the header, in the first paragraph and?

- Myth. It's just superstition and it's nonsense. The things people believe about search are so bizarre to me.

- [Ardath] Okay which part's the myth?

- That you don't need to indicate relevance

- Oh okay.

- and target a phrase.

- All right, good, okay.

- So here's a prescriptive approach to what I call semantic SEO. This is semantic SEO.

- Okay.

- This is about targeting the topic, not just the phrase.

- [Ardath] Right.

- We still must target the key phrase. So for example. If you and I are collaborating on a piece about develop personas for B2B, and we decide that that's gonna be our focus for this article. It might be B2B persona development. And we still have a primary key phrase and we still use that phrase in the title, in the header and in the body text.

- [Ardath] Right.

- You just will not rank if you don't indicate relevance for something.

- [Ardath] Right.

- You have to be specific and make, go deep on that topic. But it's insufficient to just have a primary key phrase and think that by using B2B persona development four times in a 1,000 word article that's gonna rank.

- Right.

- That's silly. That's not how Google works. People are trying to find the best page on the topic. So we go deeper without losing focus on the primary, or our main target key phrase. We go deeper on the topic by discovering, very simply, you know what are the related searches at the bottom of the search result? We search for B2B person development, at the bottom it has, it mentions account based marketing, it mentions persona writing. It mentions persona research.

- Okay so you need to also consider adjacent terms to the topic.

- Perfect word.

- Okay.

- Exactly.

- Use all the adjacent, make a list of them, this is a prescriptive way to do killer SEO, make a list of all those adjacent terms, I might steal that from you, thank you. That's great way to describe it. And just incorporate those into the article. Which by the way, now our article's gonna be 2,000 words because we didn't think about--

- [Ardath] Because you can't just stuff them in there, you got to make sure

- No.

- that they're in context with what you're talking about.

- So you're B2B persona research, B2B persona development article is now answering all the related questions, going deeper on the topic. It is more thorough and exhaustive than it would have been, SEO just made us a better writer and now we're ranking, we're more likely to rank for that primary phrase and all the adjacent phrases.

- Now would you say that if you take that approach you need less content to rank better?

- Yes. You're gonna have more of those traffic champions. And you're gonna find that you're getting, yeah, you don't need to have a medium quality post every week. You might need to have a really in depth post every two weeks. You'll get way more traffic with less effort, right? 'Cause the internet's not waiting for another medium quality blog post.

- Right. 'Cause that's one of the biggest challenges is especially when you start creating personas, right, it's a multiplier. So you have to create

- Right.

- you know, instead of creating content for one persona, you now got five, so that's five pieces.

- Right.

- And then you have to keep doing it. And so one of the questions, in fact after my workshop today somebody came up to me and said, "We have 15 nurture tracks and we've got x amount of personas "and we have to create storylines "and it's just getting out of hand. "And we need all this content. "What's the secret to doing this? "How do I do this without having to create so much." And so it's kind of like look for the over lays and things like that. But if you can get more coverage

- Right.

- with one piece by looking at those adjacent topics

- Yup.

- then you can you know, get more accomplished and you don't need to create so much. And I think there's this fear that people have that if they're not publishing all the time that they're not gonna be relevant in the search rankings and all that. But I don't think it's the speed of publishing, I think it's the quality of what you put out. Is that fair?

- I think it, well you said earlier like does anyone say, "Hey where's my cold email today?" Zero percent of prospects or visitors are looking for mediocrity or anonymity, they're trying to find something great. So if you have 15 of them, whoa you might advise that client to narrow it down. But let's say we've got 15.

- Yeah, I've never seen anybody who needed 15 before.

- What's the max?

- Well it depends in her case in all fairness she said to me, "Well we're not just talking buyers, "we're talking customer retention "and we're talking partners."

- Okay.

- And we're talking, you know. So when you add all those up okay maybe. But generally I haven't seen any for more than five

- Great.

- personas.

- [Andy] So let's say we've got five.

- And sometimes the information that you need over laps.

- Sure.

- So you create the body of it and then you change the intro and the conclusion and the title, whatever, make it relevant to that persona. And you're not reinventing the wheel five times.

- No.

- And people don't look at those over laps. They think they have to do something unique and different for every touch point for every persona. And it just, I mean. I had a client who had four personas and we were doing a project to address them across the course of a year and it was like 240 pieces of content. And then her eyes got all big

- No, no, ah man.

- and I was like, "You don't need to do that much. "You can consolidate a lot of this down. "And there are places where topics over lap." People need to know the same kinds of information but they need it in a perspective that matches theirs. And so you can just re-work it.

- I would tell these people you've got five personas,

- You're crazy.

- Yeah, you're crazy. Here's what we're gonna do instead. You've got five personas. Each of these personas has you know, 20 questions they might need to have answered before they become a lead or purchase or buyer sign up. Just five of those that are the really big questions. Have we published the super detailed, thorough just best answer on the internet for each of those five questions for each of those four people? And just keep refining and polishing those, make it the alternate version in video, you know make the adjacent articles. Publish that in every form with every, have you gotten the influencer included in each of those? And just keep working on each of those it's a little hub of content for each of those and just--

- [Ardath] Yeah that's the key is the hub.

- [Andy] Yeah, build it up you know.

- Giving them access to more information. You know it's funny because people think that if they publish something once they can't do it again because everybody will remember.

- Oh nobody remembers.

- Nobody will remember.

- No they will not remember.

- And that's why people don't get enough use out of their content. They think--

- Republish, relaunch. So, I'll make it a question. Is it six months old? We can assume that this is new to our audience, we republish it. Is it definitely a year old? Right they don't remember this thing, it's a year old now. Tweak the headline, give it a new image. You know put a new coat of paint on this. You can put things back in rotation which means another email, put them back in social streams. Relaunch--

- Yeah people don't remember.

- Right, I'd say six months is a--

- Hey I downloaded something last week and downloaded it again yesterday because I thought, "Wow this is interesting." And then I download, it took me few minutes and I went, "Wait I read that."

- But I mean a week, you know.

- You got value, yeah.

- Because it resonated with me. But if it's been awhile I won't remember that I read it before 'cause I read so much stuff. But it's the same for prospects they don't remember either, they're busy.

- No. Familiar audience, enable the sales team by breaking down that wall and giving them what they really need, engender trust, you know get more cooperation from them later. Make decisions based on data. Go back and find things that were working and starting to slide, or were working and would get more benefit from that attention. And relaunch, repurpose, update, put that back into heavy social rotations. Send it as another email, you know put that back on the front line.

- [Ardath] Well I agree with you and the other thing I did too is reuse stuff all the time.

- Yeah.

- So it's like you never want to have a dead end with your content, you always want to connect with something else. And so we write, you know a lot of times we'll do a nurture program that we have off nav right, so that we can keep reusing it and put the leads in.

- Sure.

- But we'll also do a parallel blog series that's public, but we cross link.

- Yeah, yeah.

- You know. From the nurturer to the blog to also give them additional information. But you always want to have the next step. What's next for everybody? You never want to leave them going, "Okay thanks, seeya." Right?

- Right.

- You know you always want to give them something else and extend that engagement while you have them.

- Yeah.

- You know. But there's ways to create content where you get more use, right?

- Yeah.

- So by creating the blog in parallel they're getting some published on their blog, but we're also using it to extend engagement or to nurture. And if somebody stumbles upon the website, finds an interesting blog post, maybe they opt in

- Yeah sure.

- on the blog, to get into your nurture. And so there's a lot of different ways to look at how to put it together, so you're not just randomly, I see people randomly creating content. 'Cause they think they need more, they need to publish every Tuesday at 10 or whatever that strange thing is.

- Ditch that publishing calendar. I'll share with you a theory I have. I don't have data for this. I would love to study this somehow. I have a theory that people like to click on next buttons.

- [Ardath] Really?

- And that if you, say I love what you said about dead ends and I recommend that, too. It's like find and fix every dead end in your website. There's lots of dead ends on people's website. Thank you pages are often dead ends. Give people something more in every case on every page.

- Right.

- But yeah, if you scroll down to the bottom of an article and there's this footer, well that's basically a failure. A call to action might work. But, depending on the source of traffic that person might have come just for the information. They just did an informational query, they're here for answers. What if we just tried putting like a next button, or a link that just says next? I have a theory that people just like to click on next buttons.

- Yeah, but the trick with that is if they click on next and it's something that doesn't continue on the story, if it's not related to what they just read, then it's like bait and switch, right?

- I should have known you'd say that Ardath. You are a pathological, empathetic person.

- Not a lot.

- You're pathologically empathetic. You are obsessed with the audiences.

- Is that good?

- Yes, no it's great!

- But it's one of the reasons why you spend, I spend so much time working on that storyline.

- Sure.

- Right so that stuff connects together so that you can use it in that way.

- [Andy] Yeah.

- And I like the theory of the next button. I think I'm gonna try that. And see what happens.

- Yeah, just next.

- I have a--

- I think people just click on next if they see next they're more likely--

- It's an interesting idea.

- Just let's test that click through rate.

- As long as you have content is next, what happens a lot of times and I'm working on a project like this right now with a client where they said, "We have all this content. "We need to create a track for "this persona you just built for us. "So figure out how that works." And I'm looking at their content going, "You got nothing. "That this persona cares about nothing." And so I'm like, "Okay how do we fix that?" 'Cause they're like, "We got all this content "we have to reuse it and make it work." And I'm like, "Okay we're gonna have to like "repurpose, I mean I've dug through 500 assets. "And I found two things that maybe with a rewrite "would be relevant to that persona." Because they've always resonated with the engineering side of the house, and now they need to resonate with the business side, they have nothing. So it's translating you know, stuff that, that's why it's so important to look at the foundation first. Right, because you can't just launch because you want a program. And they're like, "Make content work for this." "Well okay we have to rewrite stuff."

- Ardath I could talk to all day. And we're gonna run out of time, but I want to ask you this. How important is it that the content in these storylines and for these personas and people, how important is the originality?

- Oh I think it's hugely important. Because, if you look at it from the perspective of you're trying to become that expert resource, for your buyers, for your customers and reinforce that and bring something to the table they can't get anywhere else. How do you get that if it's not original, if it's not your SMEs, if it's not your expertise, it's not your unique take on the world? You know in relation to whatever problem you solve. from Purota and I have had this feud going on forever, right because I'm like against curation, you know. And it was really funny a couple years ago I realized that when I'm tweeting I'm curating, right 'cause I'm sharing everybody's else's stuff.

- Sure, oh yeah, that's curation.

- And so I actually admitted it on Twitter. I think he has it framed in his office, you know that I actually admitted curation is useful. You can share other people's thoughts. But you should always build on them.

- Right add value, definitely.

- If you're going to share somebody's else's say this is really great, but in addition to that, what about this other thing? You know so you're adding your thinking, but you can also share other people's stuff. You just have to do it in a way that still has you being helpful, not just being lazy.

- Right, right.

- Right? So there's a difference there I think.

- I appreciate that. You are as always, an evangelist for quality, I'm not surprised, for empathy, for originality.

- Oh well thank you, you know. You are right up there at the top in what you do, as well. I hear nothing but great stuff about what you do.

- We try, we work hard, right. It's a job that's never done.

- No it isn't, thankfully for us. We'll always have a job.

- From one marketer to another

- I know.

- it's a good thing that we've still got work to do.

- It's been great seeing you, Andy.

- Thanks Ardath, it's a pleasure.

- You too.