On this episode of Marketer-to-Marketer, Joe Pulizzi, Leah Hammes, Demian Ross, and Melanie Deziel chat about their Content Marketing World experiences.Read More
Matt Heinz, President and Founder of Heinz Marketing Inc., and Katrina Neal, Content Marketing Evangelist for LinkedIn, work their way through the tough subjects of building relationships and change adoption in organizations; how tools can help – and hurt – organizations trying to create and improve processes. In the end, it all comes down to the humans you are working with.
Organizations face considerable struggles in getting even their leaders to think differently when adopting change. Matt describes his experience with an executive who was worried about changing his processes for his team because it would require them to consider the monetary outcome: “You'll have a CMO that is just deathly afraid of being responsible for anything related to the money. [They’ll say], “I don't control when the deal closes.” Well, your sales team doesn't really control that either, so, let's take control off the table and just try to focus on the same goal.”
In her many years at Cisco, Katrina used tools to improve efficiency in production for her teams. She found that sometimes adoption came with patience and understanding the humans behind the processes. “If you actually looked at that adoption curve, you know, it's only the first 20 percent that are those innovators, those thought leaders. The whole other 60 percent, they're resistant. They don't want change. For me, it comes to that trigger; that moment where the pragmatists say, “It's worth the risk.” They stop fearing that things could be worse than the status quo. So, it's very much the human being's process and it’s just time. I think you have to have patience when humans are evolving and changing.
This unique conversation wanders from chickens to stingrays to attribution and then to change adoption, but it's worth the ride. Watch the episode to hear what these marketers have to say about all creatures - but mostly humans.
- Alright. - Hi. - Hello. - Hi, I'm Matt. - Hi, I'm Katrina. - Nice to meet you. - Nice to meet you, too. - Now, we actually did meet, I think, for the first time last night. - Yes. - At the speaker reception, so it was fun to get to know you. We had a wide-ranging discussion on so many topics covering everything from sting rays to chickens to Jason Miller to superlatives that are used far too casually in both countries. - Absolutely. - But, maybe we'll start with, tell everybody, like, who you are and what you do. - So, my name is Katrina Neal. I work for LinkedIn at the London office. - Okay. - Jason Miller sits within paper-throwing distance from me. - I'm sorry to hear that. - And I started there about 11 months ago, with the fabulous job title of Content Marketing Evangelist. - Nice. - And the jazz hands are compulsive. - The jazz hands are part of it. On the business card, there's a GIF in the email signature, evangelist. - Although, somebody did suggest that to be truly American I should get some foam fingers, like evangelist, especially orange ones. - Is that we're known for, is the foam fingers? - I don't know. - I'm actually quite worried that, you know, people overseas are like, this is a very diverse country, we've got all kinds of different people, and you think of us based on, like, you know, the NFL football fans sitting in the third row, third level. - No judgment, that was just the first thing that somebody said to me. - Just foam fingers, alright. - So I don't know anything about you, Matt. I scanned your LinkedIn profile - Sure. And I saw you had a passion for Demont Generation and you kept chickens, - I do. Which I thought was quite interesting. So, what do you do? - Not necessarily in that order, so, I run a company called Heinz Marketing. We're a B to B sales and marketing consulting firm out of Seattle. I do work with companies all over North America, helping them build and sustain pipeline, B to B pipeline for their sales teams. Been doing it a long while, for about nine years. Kind of grown a nice little business, nice little team up in Seattle and then, yeah, we live in an old, about 110 year old farmhouse, outside of Seattle with, got three kids, a dog, 10 chickens, two rabbits, a goat on the way. - A goat on the way? - We're not pregnant with goats but I guess there's springtime plans to bring in the goats, as well. And speaking of animals, I don't know about in England, but, like in the States, having chickens in the backyard has become kind of a normal thing, so when you hear someone say they have chickens, it's like okay, fine. I don't even think twice but, you have sting rays? - Yes. - So, talk about that. I know we're probably supposed to talk about enterprise marketing, but just, sting rays first. We're gonna talk about sting rays. - We can make the bridge. We can make the bridge on this. - Yeah, I just got approval to talk about sting rays. You don't have to bridge it. I'm just curious about the sting rays. - Well, we were talking about chickens, because to me, not that many people keep chickens in the U.K., but Jay, the last time I saw Jay talk, he was talking about the chicken whisperer and there was a podcast and I told him about my husband's developing business, selling freshwater sting rays. - [Matt] Yep. - And, he kind of, sort of, took a step back and like, really, that's a bit niche. Or niche. - [Matt] It is, one of the two, yeah. - Yeah, but, we can now order sting rays online and we're building an audience first. We're doing content, blogs, all that helpful, inspiring, entertaining content. - It sounds fascinating! I mean, just to hear someone talk about like, sting rays, in sort of any kind of a domestic environment. Fascinating! Now, here's what I'm thinking, to serve a couple purposes. So, we have 10 chickens now. I built a new coop this past spring, that we could have up to 18. So, we'll probably end up with somewhere between 10 and 15. So, we have three kids and they're eight, six, and four, so they're still a little young, but a lot of kids, when they get a little older, they do, like, a lemonade stand, right? I want my kids to have an egg business. - Nice. - Right, so, you know, as the eggs come out, they're all organic. They're all naturally fed. And you could go around the neighborhood and get a subscription. Like, you could subscribe to the egg. So, you want six a week. You want a dozen every other week, great! We'll take care of it. Swipe the card. We can have a website. You know, they all have names, right? Like, some of them were named by my wife, so they have names that are like, Petunia, like, named after flowers. And then you can tell those that are named by my kids. One of them is Popsicle. - Okay. - Another one of them is named Easter, because we got him right around Easter, right? So, they've all got their own stories. I think that, I don't know what you think? Think their fascinating. - Yeah, when we started, I've got a seven year old and a five year old, and they started naming the sting rays. The first one was Pancake, for real. - [Matt] Alright, I can see that. - But, we're about 200 now, so, we kind of lost track on the naming convention. - Okay, I now have a whole bunch more questions. Now, so, you must live in a small flat, somewhere downtown. I mean, where do you put 200 sting rays? - Everywhere. They're in my kitchen. - Just permanently flood the house? - In my living room. They're in the garage. The kids they've got, no, the kids don't have sting rays in their bedrooms, but, it's a serious thing that I find entertaining. I mean, I've been in corporate marketing. I worked for Cisco for 15 years. - Yeah. - You know, that B to B thing with the big budget. Sort of, grand, global concept marketing. - Yeah. - And to kind of really bring it down to brass roots. - Yeah. - When my budget is a 100 pounds. - Yeah. You know, it really makes you scrappy and you know, I've taught myself WordPress. - Oh, yeah? - You know, I'm doing A B testing on Facebook. You know, it kind of blends my gift nature of loving content marketing. - But to bring it back to the B to B side, I mean, like, what's fascinating about this is, like, we can go on forever and we could eventually talk about B to B marketing or LinkedIn. - We could. - But, like, this is more fun and I think, you know, no matter how big a business you're selling to, it's just people talking to people, right? Like, buildings don't write checks. Like, we do. - Yep. - So, to get to know someone behind the company, as a buyer or as a seller, is interesting. Like, we just finished some research where we were looking at buyer behavior and buyer trends and we were looking at what are the attributes of suppliers that buyers most appreciate? And very high on the list was your relationship with someone at the supplier company, right? And that relationship can be based on a subject matter expertise or it can be just something that makes them stand out, like, for the last year and a half, every one of my presentations will usually start with an offer of giving away some content that we have, as well as, my award-winning bacon recipe and it's won no awards, I just call it that, and all of the sudden. So, now, I'll see people at conferences and they'll wanna talk about bacon, right? Or, they'll talk about chickens. - Do you have a bacon blog? Tell me you have a bacon blog. - I don't. I have a bacon blog post. - Okay. - About the bacon. It's a very simple recipe. We can get through that, as well, if you want, but I think it's being unique, being remarkable, as a company and as a brand, that we saw some good examples of that here from GE and from others, but, also as individual, right? And if you're in B to B, and you're selling, and I think about this in the context of, even LinkedIn, sales navigating. You know, all of our clients using Sales Navigator. I'm in it all day long. The kind of insights you can share, as well as, that you can glean, and follow up with. I mean, I think sometimes I get deals by remembering someone's birthday or by congratulating their college team on a win this weekend, because you're providing value. You're showing that you pay attention. You're, in some cases, showing empathy to people beyond just the deal and that can help you stand out. - On one of my standard slides that I have in my master classes I run, and we talk about you know, from my time at Cisco, we had the B to B sales dynamic. - Yeah. - I mean, I'd bring up a nice picture of Map In, how there's lovely lunches and we talk about you know, they'd have some fine wine, then we share some jokes, be entertaining, educational, a little of gossip, and it's about taking that online. - Yeah. - You know, the moments when your customers are not in the room with you, you know, someone else is gonna get their ear and can you really, truly replicate that? I mean, I was a remote worker for nearly 10 years, so I worked from my home office and that human touch is still very tangible. I think once you make that initial connection, you can sustain it in a digital environment, but those really complex deals, where there's complex human interactions. - Well, and that's a big, you know, when I think of social selling, that's a big part of it, right? The relationship, it's connections beyond just the deal, but, how do you teach people to do, naturally, that level of, sort of, agile content marketing? I mean, I think, Ann Hanley has said, everything the light touches is content. So, saying happy birthday to someone is content. Congratulating their, you know, football team on a great match this weekend, like, that's content, right? But, like, it's not, for company's that are used to, like, processing content, right? Drafting something, reviewing something, publishing something, that more spontaneous, more frequent, more agile content. I mean, given you're on LinkedIn and doing the master classes, have you found that that's difficult for companies to adopt in scale? - It depends on your organization type. - Yeah. - And the kind of news places I would see is that individuals are nervous about publishing. They're not natural writers. - Yeah. - There could be a social media policy where people want control over what employees say, think, and do, and one of the components of making LinkedIn work, is having an employee sharing platform. So, we have a product called Elevates. You know, there are other platforms out there. But, that really, you can craft the contents with that voice, that grand voice, that's been vetted. - Yeah. - And then, it literally pops up on your phone and you can share it. - Yeah. - So, you're creating content, curating content, for your employees. And that seems to be a nice balance to people, and obviously, you still have your people that write, on the platform, your articles, but that seems to be a good halfway house to people that may not be so comfortable of wanting to relinquish control. - So, I have to ask you the question that everybody's asking, everybody's wondering. Kate's pregnant again. - Yes. - Like, when does it end? Like, how many's, how many? - I saw that in the news, otherwise, I would be like who's Kate? Yeah, you know, what's that about? I don't know. Is it a boy? Is it a girl? - I don't know. I was like, well. - I'm very happy for them. - Having two kids, instead of, okay, you're married, you have two kids, and then, we have three, and when we got pregnant with our third, people were like what? - Yeah. - Another? What are you doing? - I always say to my kids, I have two arms, like, one for each of you, and I don't know what you do with the third one. - Well, people say like, you go from man to man to zone defense, right? Like, there's no man to man defense on two kids. Like, it's zone with one, right? It's just spinning all around, everywhere. It's nuts. So, I promised you I wouldn't ask any, like, product roadmap LinkedIn questions, so I won't ask that but I'm still curious, like, what are the points of resistance you see with companies that aren't yet adopting elements of social selling? Like, if you're doing B to B selling, I don't know how, I don't know how you could not use LinkedIn, at this point. I mean, kudos to LinkedIn for creating an ubiquitous tool that has market share and critical mass in literally every B to B industry now. But there's still plenty of companies that aren't using it. What are their excuses? Like, what are the answers that they give to that question? - It's very simple. It's the people. It's the people, it's human being's reaction to change. - Yeah. - You know, I was at Cisco for a very, very long time and my personality type is very much about transformation and making change, but, you know, if you kind of map some of those personality types to an adoption curve, you know, you got a lot of pragmatists and conservatives and it's learning how to talk to them. It's a change management exercise and when we saw it, this morning, with GE, you know, you're the lone person with the idea. If you actually looked at that adoption curve, you know, it's only the first 20 percent that are those innovators, those thought leaders. The whole 60 percent, they're resistant. They don't want change, you know, and it depends on the organization, but, I think, for me, is when it comes to that trigger. - Yeah. - That moment where the pragmatists say, it's worth the risk. - Yeah. - You know, they stop fearing that things could be worse than the status quo. So, it's very much the human being's process and it's just time. I think you have to have patience when humans are evolving and change. That's my experience. You know, as a marketer, I used to read all about, you know, the funnel, and the absolute direct marketer and I found myself reading change management books. - Yeah. - Like change management theory. How do you get people to change? Then, again, this morning, we heard it was really about appealing to people's emotions. - Right. - You know, and not the logic. And considering I just did a talk about the rise of the data scientist and being data driven. - Yeah. - You know, there's still that human element. - Of course. - That primeval element. - There always will be. - So, yeah. - I think, when we, work in a lot of companies, trying to help the marketing team embrace revenue responsibility, and I think a lot of the B to B, you still have a lot of marketing groups that really are, sort of, glorified arts and graphs departments that aren't even focused on leads, let alone pipeline and revenue, and the biggest challenge is the same. It's culture. I mean, you'll have a CMO that is just deathly afraid of being responsible for anything related to the money. Like I said, I don't control when the deal closes. Like, well, your sales team doesn't really control that, either, so, let's take control off the table and just try to, like, focus on the same goal. So, those cultural changes, I don't think we put nearly enough focus on that when we're trying to get someone to adopt a new approach, when we're trying to get someone to change their number. You know, I've done a handful of, sort of, LinkedIn trainings for some of our clients and I'll never forget this one manufacturing company. It was like, you know, 60 year old company. A lot of the sales reps had been at the job for 35 years. Kind of crusty, old, manufacturing guys and you know, their head of sales, Mike, says, I want you to do a LinkedIn training. I'm like, bracing myself for how bad this is gonna be. Some of the best adopters, during the break. Like, we took a break and said, okay, work on your profile, do all these things. There were a couple of guys that were the crusty guys that I thought were gonna be the most troublemakers, they were in. They bought into it and I think part of the reason is because I think whenever you're trying to, whenever we try to bring in some change, or bring in something new like that, the last thing I wanna do is start with the technology, or start with the tool. - Yeah. - 'Cause this about. - I've made that mistake. - Well, it's easy to do! Like when, you know, you're excited about it and you know that that's how you're gonna get there? Like, I started by talking about relationship style. I started by talking about the importance of relationships still today. That in a crazy, fast world, that's increasing in commoditize, the relationships still matter. My dad was a Caterpillar tractor sales rep. For him, relationships were everything. So, I tell those stories first to talk about the fundamentals of selling in the psychology of selling. Before, I then say, okay then, here's how you apply it. Here's a set of tools that if my dad had them 30 years ago, he would be all over them because they can scale very efficiently what he was trying to do with just a telephone and a car. - [Katrina] Wow. - It's exciting. It's an exciting time. - Crackers. But, yeah, I think at the heart of it is very much change and you know, I was looking to bring in a new. Hi, Andrea. We were looking to bring in. - Bring in a chair! - Come and sit down! - We'll make it like, it's like the Merv Griffin show! Look who just popped by, everybody. - I didn't photo bomb Ardeth and Andy, so I'm making up for it now. - That's fantastic. Anyway, you were saying. - No, no, that was complete, no. - I think, you know, the attraction of a number of platforms, if you automate a bad process, you just get quicker at doing things badly, but I was looking at Compose, Contact Media Platform, as trying to manage a global content marketing team. - Yeah. - As a manager, you know, it was ticking over boxes, you know, and understand your production, where the bottlenecks in that production, 'cause you know, there was once upon a time where I would try and my team would try and get an email campaign out. It took six months to create an email campaign. And I'm serious, you guys, how is that even possible? And it would be like this. - Yeah, yeah. - So, it's like, okay, what if we can document a workflow. - Right. - And say, ah, it was the brand team. It was whoever. That seemed like a good thing to me because reducing your costs, as well as, generating revenue are equal of interest to your CFA. So, I was all over it then. Yeah, this is it. This is the way we're gonna do things and, you know, the team still found it very difficult to change the way they did their job. I mean, you'll fundamentally change what people show up every day and do. - Yeah, yeah. - And that cultural shift, doesn't happen just by switching on some software. That was a huge lesson for me. You can blinded by all the benefits, but you have to really consider those, that emotional reaction to the software. - So, talk a little bit about, like, you talk a little about process and systems. And another way that I think about that sometimes, is habits, right? Like, if I'm doing, like, relationship selling. If I'm trying to sort of stay in front of my network or my pipeline on a regular basis with, you know, buying signals and trigger events, that's to do that on a regular basis. I find that some companies seem to resist process, seem to resist systems, because they see it as draconian and they see it as not nearly as agile as they want to be. Or want to appear to be. What do you think about that? - Oh, wow, I mean, I've worked for myself. - Yeah. - I've worked for a global company. I've worked in corporate. I've worked in region. I've worked for start-ups, and yeah, there's a whole difference between process. I've been at the complete end where there is so much process, you can't even breathe. - [Matt] Right. - To the zero process and everybody is falling over themselves. There's duplication everywhere. - [Matt] Right. - And this kind of like, a happy medium, but yeah, I mean, yeah, I've only recently got to know Jeff, but agile marketing, I absolutely adopted that at Cisco as this halfway house. - Yeah. - So, I decided, because the waterfall project methodology just was not working for me. We would have this beautiful plan. This is what we're gonna do for the next eight months and then, by the time that it got to eight months, it wasn't fit for purpose anymore. - Right. - So, I did find scrub master training. I was the only marketer in the room. - Really? - They were all software developers and they're like, who's this chick? - Right. - So, I understood the principles, but whilst I was trying to implement COMPOSE, I was also trying to implement agile at the same time. I mean, my poor team, you know. - Well, it's a balancing act. I think you know these, often times, I think agility is using the excuse for having no strategy. And I think you have to have a strategy to do agile affectively, 'cause you have to have, you still have to know what the end goal is. You still have to know what you're working towards and the tactics you use to get there may change and things you try may not work and so, you make adjustments. But, if you don't have a general strategy of what you're trying to do and how you think you're gonna accomplish it, then it just seems like random acts of marketing that may or may not go anywhere and may waste an inordinate amount of time, that, you know, I mean, it seems to me like when I think about, like, helping our clients build pipeline, like, my goal is to get them to a point where they've got a repeatable, predictable, scalable process, where they can do a lot of the same things and generate the same results. Now, what's gonna work is gonna change over time, but, like, process and system and replication, like, that's the goal. Like, that's gotta be part of the strategy to be able to scale what you're doing. You introduce a new person to your sales team, bring someone else onto your content team, like, if they have to start from scratch, or somehow figure out whatever institutional knowledge exists to get their job done, you can't run a business that way. I don't care if it's a 20 person manufacturing company or a hundred thousand dollar global enterprise. - But, again, when you're being an innovator, and trying to make change, like GE was saying, it can be a bit ugly and you don't have, it's not a fully formed thing. - Alright. - So, as you iterate every two to three weeks, you know, things become a little clearer and you know, the more pragmatists and conservatives were uncomfortable because we didn't know exactly what it was going to look like. So, when we're building this as we go along and we thought it was, that was over here, might actually end up being over here. So, I felt entirely comfortable because it wasn't fully formed. - Yeah. - And it seemed to be the only way to deal with a complex project with so many moving parts. You just wanna go crazy trying to map every micro thing out in a waterfall methodology. - Do you think that companies sometimes assume, or wish, or hope, or expect that the process is gonna be cleaner than that? 'Cause I completely agree with you and like, we have a saying here in America, maybe you guys use it as well, like, you don't always wanna see how the sausage gets made, right. And sausage making in sales and sausage making in marketing can be quite ugly, right? Even though we were talking earlier about, you know, some work we've been doing on our house, and Douglas and you were talking about, before I came on, and was saying it looks good and on Instagram, it looks great. - It looks amazing! - What you didn't see was the carnage in the garage of all the stuff that I messed up with first. And so, as it is with marketing, as well. You try things, it doesn't work. You pivot one direction, you try an industry, you try a segment, it doesn't work. You try this sales model, it doesn't work. Like, the path to success is littered with failure. - But I think, again, it comes down to personality types. I'm really comfortable with that. - Yeah. - Because as long as I'm learning it, okay, that didn't work. We'll try something else. - Yeah. - But it's more of that culture. So, that's a management issue. It's a culture of that failure is okay. I mean, at one point, I don't know if Cisco still do it, you know, to take a product photo, you had, it had to be at this angle, with this. I mean, it was so perfect. - Yeah. - You know, and access to phones at real time. That's changing things now. - Yep. - And, you do get a little bit more of the ugly stuff, in terms of production, but equally. I mean, somebody was telling me, I went to Braught the other day. I'd just come from Australia and they said, oh yeah, I saw Brighton Pier on Instagram. - [Matt] Yeah. - And it was amazing and I went there, and when I got there, it wasn't quite so cool. - Well, I mean, you have to have a high level, a high tolerance for chaos, to make this work sometimes, and I think, I really do think, again, back to culture. A culture of failure. A culture of acceptance of failure is the path to success. I mean, there's a product, WD-40, which I kind of just take for granted. It fixes things, makes things not squeak. I mean, you know why it's called WD-40, right? - I don't, no idea. - It's because it took 39 failures to get to the formula that works, so 40 was kind of like a take. Take two, take three, take 10, take 12. Take 40 actually worked, so it took like, 40 tries to come up with a product that we all just think, oh that's great and just take it for granted and so it goes with a lot of things. You know, we're talking about GE. I mean, there's a million versions of the light bulb. It didn't work. So, yeah, we see the Instagram at the end. We see the five percent of things that are successful. We don't always see the rest of it. But, that's part of the process, and honestly, the more we talk to companies of different size and different industries, even at a conference like this. Like, this morning, at breakfast, talking to some people that were coming from all different kinds of companies. Talked to a guy last night who is the video content producer for Lowe's, the Home Improvement super stores. Talked to a gal this morning who is the sole marketer for a suburban library outside of Cleveland, right? And she's wondering if this conference is gonna be relevant to her, 'cause she's worried it's gonna be a bunch of big company marketing and big company ideas and one of the benefits of coming to this type of conference is if people are honest with themselves, they're like, listen, none of us have this figured out and if we have it figured out, it's about to change and then we're not gonna have it figured out. So, if we admit to each other that we are all struggling. We are all testing. We are all failing. We are all making this up as we go. Maybe it's not quite that bad, but some version of that. - But you can, you can make it up as you go in a manageable, controllable way. - In a disciplined way. Right. - It's not quite so random. - I agree with you. - In my talk today on the rise of the data scientist, you know, I talk about the value of having data scientists internal. Like, some people are like, yeah, I can't afford that. I don't have the money to use on external data scientists. But, just like basic A B testing on LinkedIn. You know, you say, okay is it this or this? Is it this image or this image that works with my audience? - Right. - That's accessible to everybody. - It is. But that discipline behind it that I don't see often enough is, once you do that test, B is wrong, A is right. How do you document that so you never do B again? How do you make sure that successive teams that come after you, and it may be different circumstances, different markets you can test B again, and maybe it'll work, but at least have the context of how and where and why it failed. I mean, one of the phrases that I hate when people use is the idea of throwing spaghetti on the wall. Which, you know, there's a booth here. There's a vendor here at the conference and their theme is, I mean they're an analytics firm, and they're like, you know. - I don't think I saw that, yet. - You shouldn't, don't just, like, throw spaghetti on the wall and what they have in their booth, is they have a plexiglass wall and they have a vat. It's like 12 gallons of cooked spaghetti you can throw on the wall. - Oh, that sounds gross. Does it have sauce on it or is it plain? - It's plain. There might be some olive, I don't know. I'm not touching that spaghetti, at this point. - I haven't been to that one. I was more interested in the little bag that we got in our pack. - Yes. - That, to me, looked like an airline emergency bag. - Right. - But, apparently, it's for sweets. - It's for candy, yeah. - It's for candy. - Yeah, they probably should not have designed it to look like the sick bag on the airplane. Not the best option. But, I think. - I first took it as an after-partying thing. Like, emergency kit, or something. I don't know. - Different stages of partying. You got someone sponsoring the alcohol, someone sponsoring the alka-seltzer in the bag. Tomorrow morning, someone's gonna be walking around with the Tylenol. We've got all bases covered. We're all good. - Yeah, 'cause we got like, the 80's party tonight. - Yes! - And we've already had Rick Hassley. - We've been Rick-rolled already at this conference. We've been Rick-rolled, there was a number of ZZ's music. Alright, so, speaking of 80's music. - Yes. - What sort of lip sync battle tonight, right? There's a lip sync battle tonight. What would Jason Miller do? And what would you, not what you would you do, what will you do tonight, at lip sync battle? - Okay, right, so, if Jason is like, the Godfather of content marketing and heavy metal. - Right. - Yeah, I'm like the disco diva. - Oh! - They're complete. - Wow! - Polar opposites. - Okay, alright. - So, I actually came prepared for the 80's disco. I have a choose life t-shirt. - Yes. - I was a WHAM girl and I could probably still recite without any titles, Young Guns by WHAM, the rap. - [Matt] Wow! - So, what would you do? - Oh, my God! I just, I just gotta let that settle in for a minute. That'd be great. - I'll do it after. I'm not proud to do it on my own. - There's a lot, I mean, honestly, you could go a lot of different directions. I could, like I'm a big Metallica fan. - Okay. - So, I could go. - So, you know, you're down there with Jason. You're not on there. - Well, I'm a little, I'm equal opportunity. Like, I like a lot of different kind of music. I could, I probably either do some Metallica or maybe some Garth Brooks. I might do a little bit of old school Cherry Hill Gang, Rapper's Delight. I mean, you could go, so I've been listening on Serius XM, I've been listening a lot to Backspin, which is 80's and 90's hiphop. I may not look like a hiphop kinda guy, but underneath this. - You're way cooler than me. - I can bring it. - Now, I was all about the perm. - As long as I don't do this. This is my version of jazz hands. Should stop, right now. - Okay. Alright, well we'll see when you're one the dance floor later on. I'm looking forward to that. - So, follow-up question. Lip sync versus karoake. Like, what do you prefer and why? - Neither. - Okay. - No, seriously, I would rather present in front of 4,000 people than do karaoke. You know, there's tone deaf. - Yeah. - And then there's me. - Well, but the nice thing about doing lip-sync is you don't have to sing. Right? - Yeah, okay. Karaoke then. I hate karaoke. - Well, even if you love a song, but don't know all the words, you can just go up there and watermelon, watermelon, watermelon, watermelon. It's like, you know, again, focus on your dance moves. - Okay, lip sync then. There's the answer. - Watermelon. - That's right. - Right. - No, I actually think that, I was hanging out with Chris from Scorched and I think he's actually going to a karaoke bar this evening. - Before or after? - I don't know. At some point, this evening. I was feeling a bit anxious about that. - It's gonna be fun. I mean, these, you know, you can't go wrong with an 80's band. I mean, there's a lot of directions you could go with an 80's band but we'll see how they do. - [Katrina] Indeed. - It'll be fun. - Indeed. Right. - Awesome. - Well, I'm going to go and get some. - I'm done with you. - Now, I'm ready to go get some 80's music. - Let's do it. - Yeah. - Yeah, it'll be fun. - So, you're gonna be on the dance floor later? - I hope not. - You hope not. - No one needs to see that, yeah. You'll start getting negative reviews from the conference. The conference was great, except for that guy that was all knees. All right knees. That's all. - Have you done your speaking slot yet? - Yeah, I went this morning. - Okay. So, you're ratings are in. You're good. - Yeah. - You're home free. - Yeah! - I did mine this morning. - Yeah, you're done. - We can just let our hair down. - Yeah, stuff the ballot, just like, you start paying people, like, fives. Just go fives. I don't care, just go fives. Make it fun. Awesome. Well, this has been fun. - It's been really fun. - Speaking of fun. We covered a lot of ground. - We did. - Any final thoughts? And, first of all, I don't know the people that, if people were really smart, 'cause this is live streaming to like, two million people I heard, that seat at that table right there. When we're doing a shot just of you, I've been watching, that seat is like, right, that is right in the space. Like, if this was the Today Show, like, that would be a like, hundred thousand dollar seat. So, someone could sit back there. See, that one right there. This one. That seat right there. That's the money seat. So, that would be a very cool. - I might do that later. Are you recording some more later? - Yeah, the next session, we're both gonna sit there. - We'll do lip sync battle. Whoa! Someone popped in the bar! - Well, on that note, I think we're done. Thank you very much. That was fun.